tongue talk

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tongue talk

Postby Ron Dickey » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:09 pm

I have a harbor freight trailer trailer which has v type tongue. The metal is C shaped. As I look around I have found some tongues with cross bars and some with a solid bar coming up the middle I do not want to much weight up front anymore the the required weight needed in towing.
There are several forums out there that talk HF trailers for their hobby. One is a group that flies Remote control planes.

How have you reinforced yours. Or how would you reinforce it.

I have seen 1 or 2 cross bars, 3 with thick bars against the back of the C bar, I have seen 1x1 metal square tube up the middle with or with out reinforced cross bars. And one where the V was removed and replaced with one 2x2 bar up the middle and then reinforced with angle irons at the end of the trailer.

ImageImage
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once you have had one tongue brake or bend when on the road you do not want to have a repeat performance.
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Re: tongue talk

Postby absolutsnwbrdr » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:34 pm

I used 2x2x3/16" x 7' on both of my builds, but that's probably overkill. 3/16" was only a couple dollars more vs the 1/8", and I'm not gentle with my trailer so the extra strength seemed like a good idea. You can probably reuse the stock HF coupler if you shim it with some washers, but a new coupler is only about $20-$25. :thumbsup:

The extra weight of the steel tongue extension is almost negligible because you're creating a larger distance to the fulcrum (your axle) so the tongue weight hardly changes.

Heres my tongue extension on the first teardrop...

viewtopic.php?p=854558#p854558

On my second teardrop, I had the steel supplier drill all the holes for me. Cost me $65 total for the steel and the labor. Definitely worth it because you'll probably destroy $15 drill bit in the process anyway. And you'll save yourself a heck of a lot of time.

Also, on the second teardrop - the hole drilled through the coupler mounting plate goes horizontal through the tongue extension instead of vertical (as seen in my link above). This keeps the tongue extension from flopping up and down inside of the coupler mounting plate.
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Re: tongue talk

Postby angib » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:54 am

I think there are two entirely different things going on here and it doesn't help to get the two mixed up:
- reinforcing the tongue of the HF trailer;
- lengthening the tongue of the HF trailer.

Most of those examples show lengthening and in one case weakening (not reinforcing). Adding steel in the wrong place does not make the tongue stronger.

What matters is the strength at the point of maximum bending, which is at the point where the tongue leaves the front of the main frame. To reinforce a tongue, this point and a good length in front and behind that point need to be strengthened.

So this photo is a good example of really bad practice. The tongue has been lengthened by adding the central single tongue, but it hasn't been reinforced at all at the critical point where it leaves the main frame. The longer tongue makes more leverage but the strength is the same - the result is that the carrying capacity is reduced. If the trailer is only going to ever carry a small load, that might be OK (and RC planes are unlikely to be very heavy) but it's still an dangerous idea to modify a trailer so it can't carry its rated capacity/GVWR.

Image

On the other hand, this looks like a sensible lengthening and reinforcing (though the lengthening requires reinforcing, so the capacity may be no greater than the original trailer). The extra central single tongue is adding to the tongue strength at the critical point and it continues well back into the main frame - as far as the third cross member. Picking up more than two cross members doesn't itself give much benefit (in this example, the second one will carry very little load), but the important thing is the good distance the first and last cross member picked up. As a rule of thumb this should be at least as much as the width of the main frame.

Image

And making this mistake is not just for amateurs - some Carry-On trailers sold by Tractor Supply and Northern Tool have exactly the same problem and forum members have reported problems with the second cross-member bending under the tongue load (for one guy, it happened while he was still building his teardrop body!). They fit a perfectly good enough single tongue, but it is attached to fairly weak angle cross members that are positioned way too close together. Long before the tongue reaches its maximum load, the second cross member fails in bending.

Image

PS I am working on a new, simpler tongue strength page - but it may not be able to go into this sort of detail and yet remain 'simpler'. Looking at it now, the current page is a disaster!
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Re: tongue talk

Postby bobhenry » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:39 am

The Northern tool trailer I built the barn on had a failing front crossmember just as Andrew has stated. I replaced the tongue with 2 x 2 x 3 /16 square tube and ran front to rear and was able to add this.....

Image

My HF trailer has also been modified with the 2 x2 x3/16. My welder buddy stopped the tongue just before the axle fearing it might interfer. I Ireally wanted to take it to the rear for yet another rear hitch. He surprised me and added a 3 1/2 foot section across the last 2 crossmembers and shimmed and drilled it for a 1 1/4 drawbar or accessories.

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Re: tongue talk

Postby CarlLaFong » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:17 am

Whatever you do, if you weld like the example in the second pic, hire a pro
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Re: tongue talk

Postby Bogo » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:59 am

CarlLaFong wrote:Whatever you do, if you weld like the example in the second pic, hire a pro
Better yet, build saddles or fittings at the front cross member for the tongue beams to rest under, then use properly placed bolts or u bolts or similar clamps to hold them in place. Don't crush the tongue beams or cross member. That way there is no welding heating lowering the strength of the metal in the tongue beam.
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Re: tongue talk

Postby Ron Dickey » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:26 pm

Bogo wrote:
CarlLaFong wrote:Whatever you do, if you weld like the example in the second pic, hire a pro
Better yet, build saddles or fittings at the front cross member for the tongue beams to rest under, then use properly placed bolts or u bolts or similar clamps to hold them in place. Don't crush the tongue beams or cross member. That way there is no welding heating lowering the strength of the metal in the tongue beam.


So you are saying be carful when you weld or the heat may make the metal weaker? :thinking: :scratchthinking:

any of the pictures above like what you said? Just click on it, copy it and move it down!
173882......173887
Inside almost done--Trolly top has opening windows & roof.doors need assembling--pictured above waley windows..galley 1/3 done
Cross Bow in Build Journals....http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=54108
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Re: tongue talk

Postby CarlLaFong » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Image

It would be this one. The "welds", especially where the angle iron tongue meets the cross member looks like someone held a dripping candle over it. Just awful and it will fail, probably sooner rather than later. I hope nobody gets hurt or killed when it unattaches itself from the TV. Additionally, making a tube from two pieces of angle is about as half assed as it gets.
Everything that leaves my shop is fully assed 8)
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Re: tongue talk

Postby jss06 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:53 pm

I decided to reinforce the tongue on mine to mitigate possible weld failure. Especially considering that it is intended for off-road use. The tongue (including supports) and main frame rails are 2x2x3/16" So far there are no problems after several hundred miles of travel. I needed a flat tongue for my integrated tongue box.

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Re: tongue talk

Postby Bogo » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:58 pm

Ron Dickey wrote:
Bogo wrote:
CarlLaFong wrote:Whatever you do, if you weld like the example in the second pic, hire a pro
Better yet, build saddles or fittings at the front cross member for the tongue beams to rest under, then use properly placed bolts or u bolts or similar clamps to hold them in place. Don't crush the tongue beams or cross member. That way there is no welding heating lowering the strength of the metal in the tongue beam.


So you are saying be carful when you weld or the heat may make the metal weaker? :thinking: :scratchthinking:

any of the pictures above like what you said? Just click on it, copy it and move it down!


I wasn't finding what I was looking for, but this will do. Knott Trailers place has trailer parts, etc for bolted together trailers. Yeah, European origin. There is a trailer chassis at this page:
http://www.knott-trailer-shop.com/index.php/cPath/35/category/trailer_chassis_parts.htm

This is a drawbar part like used in the above trailer chassis. Note the flanges on each side in the middle to mount it to the underside of the front cross bar. Note: The line of bolt holes for adjusting the position of the brackets is down the center line of the tongue. The rear is bolted to a bracket attached to the axle, or to the frame.
Image
http://www.knott-trailer-shop.com/product_info.php/cPath/35_26/products_id/35/category/towbar_up_to_3500kg/product/towbar_zhl15_version_a_permissible_total_weight_1500kg.htm

Here is a "fitting" clamp for holding a square bar tongue. The base portion provides a saddle to distribute the load so there isn't as much of a pressure point.
Image
http://www.knott-trailer-shop.com/product_info.php/cPath/35_19/products_id/26/category/support_trestles/product/support_trestle_complete_with_clamp_and_screws.htm

I was thinking more of a plate of metal that has a bend in it so one face is parallel to the side of the tongue, and the other is parallel to the front side of the cross bar. It is then bolted to both with bolts that are roughly on the center line so they reduce the strength the least amount.

Looking at the Knott Trailer parts and it is clear they have designed them to use close to the minimal amount of materials needed to do the job yet still have a reasonable safety factor.
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