OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Converting Cargo Trailers into TTTs

Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:44 pm

Definitely it is an FM80, the FM60 is obviously shorter. Can't miss the difference.

- maybe raising them 4-6" on one side will works ok ?
What "old goat like me" wants to climb on the roof to manually raise panels ?


I believe tilting would help a lot. And I would not want to have to climb every time the panels had to be lifted or lowered. Too much hassle no matter the age. Maybe a hinged joint on one side, clevis pins or something to hold the other side down and locked. Then a prop of some kind to permit some tilt. Lift it with a "push stick". Probably a good idea if it was also restrained from a gust getting under it and lifting way up where damage could result.

Thinking hat is now on ...


When I saw the reference to 9 amps and 133 volts incoming from the PV panels something occurred to me. Maybe you are aware of this, maybe not. So, FYI... ( Being in Silicon Valley this may not be a big concern. I believe I read someplace in the thread that you are aware that high temperatures reduce the output of PV panels. Another reason to want to try to elevate and cool them.) The opposite is also true; cold temperatures increase the output voltage. Cold mornings are the worst when the sun peaks over the horizon and first hits the panels it can result in a large voltage spike.

If you are running 133 volts operating on a sunny day it is entirely possible that cold weather could raise the voltage to over the 150 VDC maximum rating of the FM series charge controller. Even a short spike can be enough to damage the CC. To make matters worse there is a tell tale in every unit that records maximum voltages. Over 150 = voided warranty.

I have a set of panels with a Voc of 36.1 volts per panel. Three in series provides a Voc of 108.3 volts. This is located in northern NM. In winter the system has recorded a peak of 141 VDC several times. It is not uncommon for the log to show a peak of 121 to 125 VDC in spring and fall. The 141 volts is only 9.1 volts away from a possible electronics fry and a toasted warranty. Well, the warranty is up come spring anyways and since it has not gone higher than 141 ever I rest easier than I did when the system recorded the first high reading.

So maybe watch where you go if the destination is cold.

There are devices that can be wired in to sense low temperatures and drop the last panel from the series until things warm up. Outback also has a string sizing tool on their website that has temperature sliders for highs and lows. Can be handy to see where the tipping point might lay.
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:48 pm

bdosborn wrote: Also, the Outback has a fan for cooling, did you run it with the cabinet door closed? Maybe it got too hot in there.
Bruce


I wondered about that too when I saw the cabinet. My CC's all are located outside in an enclosure that is extremely well vented. A 'tin hat' roof vent on the sloped roof and two side vents that are 12 x 12 IIRC. They are louvered and screened against insects.
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:52 pm

Bruce & Mtndon


I'm old and blind, so I need to keep the cabinet doors open to watch.

Today I ran AC only , it used 200 watts on my watt meter & the 63 dc knocked off after 30 minutes
Interior temp was about 75 deg, the fan for flexmax 80 came on for 2 minutes after about 20 minutes
Everything worked for about 30 minutes

The inverter was pulling about 54 amps ......
The charge controller was pulling about 550 watts and charging at 14.4 volts about 40 amps
10 amps less then the inverter ?

After it kicked off .... I just turned on a floor fan - that is pulling 10 amps on the inverter
Normally this fan pulls 50 watts on reg AC power - now 10 amps on dc
The charge controller is pulling 230 watts at around 14.4 volts to the battery
Under the absorb phase .......

Right now my panels are starting to get shade from the garage
So no more testing for today. :frightened:

Mtndon - I already thought about too many volts on cold days -
The flexmax 80 is said to have something to shut it off at over 145 watts
Gotta read more details again


Finally if I put more charge controllers , how do they share the load ?
It goes by the volt setting of each ? If one controller is at 14.3 the other at 14.4 the flexmax 80 may still flip off :x :x :x
Because it comes on first ? Lots of issues & hassle for a little free AC to keep cool.

Jerry
Last edited by OverTheTopCargoTrailer on Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby lrrowe » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:31 pm

Wow Jerry,
My head is spinning. Maybe if the solar concept is that complicated, my old brain will never wrap itself around all that knowledge needed.
But then again, I am only looking for casual (or slightly more then that) camping.

Bob
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First Post on Purchase of Trailer: http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=60722
Hot water infloor and radiator heating project:[url]http://www.tnttt.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=54&t=62327[/

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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:01 pm

Well Bob

Not to make you feel bad, but 90% of most folks have a F U system,
You really need to perfectly match the panel, the charge controller, the inverter & the battery, the wires & fuses.
Your system has to be good enough to equalize your battery system.
I would guess at least a grand for a 250 watt system that you install.

Also the smaller RV panels still cost a lot, house panels 240 watt & 30 volts are under $1 watt
But then there is $150 shipping .... So you really get it coming and going :x :x :x
If you can get a stinky $100 gen set - that may actually work for you -

Just don't park next to me PLEASE !!
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:09 pm

Mtndon - I already thought about too many volts on cold days -
The flexmax 80 is said to have something to shut it off at over 145 volts......


Outback says that the FM series will suspend operation at 145 VDC input, with a maximum of 150 volts.

But here's a quote from someone at Outback, when pressed for an answer to what might happen if the voltage exceeded 150....
"... we can't tell you, suggest to you, or imply to you that it's OK to exceed the 150 VDC limit specification."

But a different person stated that it would resume operation when the voltage dropped below 145.

Somehow I'm not sure what to believe. :NC And I ran into someone here in the mtns who told me he had toasted an MX60 (previous model) and had to pay for the repair as OB said it was his fault. Now that is second/third hand news and if this was a court of law could not be honored. So I don't know what to believe with certainty. OB should not be faulted too much for that as I have received similar runaround and doublespeak from Xantrex and worse from Morningstar.
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:15 pm

Hey Mtndon

You cannot put JACK - on the exterior of a cargo trailer
It will get wet & it will get fried !! :x

Unless its rated water proof :lol: :lol:

Jerry

PS
I found a 60 amp dc panel breaker with the 2 metal screws on the back, it says 150 volts dc
And it's listed as 81 trip amps - maybe I should try that ?
The only thing I wondered about the charge controller goes on the "line" side - incoming wire
And the "load" side wire goes out to the battery , what happens if you wire backwards ? :thinking: :thinking:
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:20 pm

MtnDon


Somewhere in the 100 page book you can adjust the 145 volt higher or lower &
Also adjust the amount of time before it trips -
It's in the expert section :? :?

I'm pretty sure all those crooks tell you it was your fault 99.98% of the time
Just like insurance Co deny your claim for treatment

Jerry
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:39 pm

I found a 60 amp dc panel breaker with the 2 metal screws on the back, it says 150 volts dc
And it's listed as 81 trip amps - maybe I should try that ?
The only thing I wondered about the charge controller goes on the "line" side - incoming wire
And the "load" side wire goes out to the battery , what happens if you wire backwards ?


That could be worth investigating. The Airpax breakers I have used came from a golf cart parts and repair shop/ 160 VDC rating in sizes all the way up to 250 amps IIRC. (good for inverters)

The 'line' and 'load' thing can be confusing. Here's the MtnDon theory of DC circuit breaker polarity.... :thinking:
Used in a battery 'out', as in supplying an inverter; +/line to the battery. No-brainer.
Used in a battery 'in', as in from a Charge Controller... also connect the +/line to the battery. :shock: Yes, because the battery can supply much greater currents than any PV panel or CC. It is that we are trying to protect against. Selecting DC circuit breaker polarity comes down to trying to choose the lesser of two evils. There may be slightly more arcing when the breaker is used as a disconnect for PV panels when the +/line is connected towards the batteries. But the current flow from panels is much less than the possible current from the batteries.



Above all else if fuses are used NEVER pull them under load. Fires result.

The Airpax I bought had no markings, no notes except to state they must be mounted vertical (to do with the internal arc path being in the designed up direction).

~~~~~~~

On the subject of DC breakers, did you know that SquareD brand, model QO and QOC breakers that are sold as AC units all over the place are also approved for low voltage DC use? Rated to 48 VDC, which means you can use them under NEC rules in 12 & 24 VDC systems. Just FYI in case that had not been noted elsewhere here.
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:53 pm

Comment on the whole air conditioning thing... The most energy efficient A/C is a heat pump style; a mini split. Specifically the Sanyo/Panasonic brand. They have a user programmable feature where the maximum wattage can be limited during times of the day, then allowed to ramp up to higher watts at other times.

I have a friend in the Sierra Nevada's who has a 1700 sq foot home that he cools with the power generated by a 2 kWh PV panel system. OK, he does have each 1 kWh array on a sun tracker. It is the tracker that makes it possible. In winter it is programmed to supply heat once the batteries are fully recharged.

The programming allows a unit to operate from 4000 to 12000 BTU rating. Of course they are not as cheap as the readily available 5000 BTU window units. Just thought I'd toss that out there. And they require 240 VAC. That would be really over the top though wouldn't it?
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:20 am

MtnDon

If I could have figured out the mini split, I would have gotten one. There were tons of road blocks and unanswered questions i always ran into. The programmable feature / limiting voltage with Sanyo is something I was not aware of ..... That makes the project much more possible. especially if you can limit to 4,000 btu. I'm actually cooling my 1300 garage with a Yonas mini SEER 13 @ 18,000 , the heater even kicks more ass then the a/c unit. You just gotta run the heater above 50 deg F to get the best bang on the Yonas. But some units like Fujitsu give 100% heat down to 10 deg. YEA ..... I would get it on in trailer in 10 seconds flat. :lol: :lol: :lol:

By the MtnDon dc breaker wiring procedure my charge controller may be backwards ? Because if I recall it has the battery as the load. But what you say makes as much sense as anything else. the other issue maybe is that I have everything wired into those upper bus bars - then there is a 4' single wire to the battery in the lower cabinet. However last time around Bruce & others did not feel that would be an issue, if you follow what I mean

I looked into the square D breakers, not easy to find however when I was looking & more expensive. I do know breakers & wires handle more load / have different trip limits when it's cold vs when they are hot :R :R
Have you ever tried to disconnect dc under load to see the fire :twisted: :twisted:
Even on AC I turn off all loads before I disconnect something & I try to not use breaker as disconnect
As they are not designed for that function. Also FYI - AC breakers stick open / on hot sometimes, just because you flipped the breaker does not mean your disconnected :thumbdown: always test to be sure.

Jerry
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:50 am

DC breakers... My understanding of the polarity is that polarity makes management of the arc flame better. But it does not make any difference to the ability of the breaker to trip properly when overcurrent events occur. So, if that is correct then the breaker will still function, but its life expectancy may be abbreviated.


OTTCT idea... regarding PV panels on roof; specifically making the roof under the panels cooler and also possibly increasing the panel output under hot conditions. Make a tunnel of the panels and the roof. Enclose the sides, leave the front and rear open. Using a fan blow air through the tunnel for cooling. If humidity is low introduce a water mist for even greater cooling. Some kind of a low profile squirrel cage fan. AC or DC?, That is the question? Something like this...
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Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby OverTheTopCargoTrailer » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:36 am

MtnDon

Ha ha , been there done that with trying to air cool the panels , I had the fan running at 500 air changes under the panel per hour, Did not make any difference. :x :x I thought I would drop 20-25 deg , maybe 1-2 :cry:

Logic says it would work , but it may need 1000 air changes per hour, so far lifting the panels from 1" to 3"
Seams to be ok and got a 20 deg drop - will still try something with the shocks to lift panels 3-5" on one side

Will look for some wire & breaker to rewire charge controller - to try some new stuff.


PS WHAT ABOUT ADDING MORE CHARGE CONTROLLERS, HOW DO THEY DISTRIBUTE THE LOAD ???
Does it go by which controller puts out the highest voltage ??

Jerry
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:49 pm

I have only added a second charge controller by using the same brand and usually the same model. (... different panel sets into the same battery bank) Then I've set both CC programming exactly the same. That is Outbacks recommendation. Also calibrated the v-batt (?) the same on both. They switch from bulk to absorb to float within a minute or less of each other.


...still try something with the shocks...


Do you mean those gas strut things?
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: OverTheTopCargoTrailer 7 x 16

Postby MtnDon » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:55 pm

For OTTCT version 2.something, or OTTCT#3 perhaps, I would think about changing to a 24 VDC battery bank. :thinking:

Good thing is everything from panels to CC can be used as is. Bad thing is all the other hardware needs replacing, except for a few breakers, plus more batteries. But that would double the watts the CC can handle and halve the CC output amps.
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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