Ira wrote:I can't figure out how to quote quotes here, so I'll try to use colors:
No problem. However, its the same process. If you substitute quote and /quote for color=red and /color, you've got it.
Scaring a dog away from your garbage can is a minor defensive issue. Thousands of homicides and accidental gun deaths every year--but I haven't heard one news story about a guy actually pulling out a gun and saving his family from REAL harm. More than likely, he accidentally shot his wife in the head.
That's because the stories of self-defese don't make the national news. They do usually make the local news, however: the NRA publishes examples of these every month. They also make the national statistics - somewhere between two and five MILLION instances of defensive uses (depending on who's collecting the statistics) each year. "Defensive uses" include those mentioned by other members here - sometimes just showing a gun is all it takes to avert the crime.
And a note on homicides - these figures include ALL gun-related deaths, including cop-on-bad-guy and those by civilians deemed justifiable.
????? Bernie Goetz had his gun for months and months. What does a 72-hour waiting period have to do with this?
Ah - miscommunication. I was talking about gun control in general, you were talking about the 72 hour waiting period in particular.
But please note what you did - first it was a waiting period to "do a background check to find if he's not a criminal or a total nut." When I shot that down with instant check, you immediately switched to a "cooling off" period - something no one truly believes in. Crimes of passion occur immediately. You don't go to Wall Mart and spend thirty to forty-five minutes filling out paperwork for a background check to buy a gun you plan to use in a murder. Sorry, doesn't happen.
Well, some people just write a check to an organization without knowing where the money goes or what the hell they're doing.
I don't think that happens in the NRA unless you don't read the magazine and ignore all the mailers they send you. Like I said before, "Yeah. It could happen."
Plus, I might have mispoken a LITTLE, because maybe I should have said the majority of gunowners, not NRA members.
And on what basis do you speak for the majority of gun owners? Inquiring minds want to know.
Of course, the NRA doesn't ask its membership to "vote" on any isues.
Actually, we do.
It just asks for their money to help them support their drive to sell more guns, based on perceived threats to gunowners' rights.
Again, the NRA doesn't sell guns. They teach people how to use them - including many police departments - but they don't sell them.
I gotta tell you, so far, if you look at how this is going, I think I'm holding my own pretty good.
Only because you're missing the points I'm making.
Who's trying to take gunowners' rights away?
HCI. PETA. The ACLU. And many, many other lobbyists too numerous to mention
By making people wait 72 hours for a gun?
Again, why should we have to? We can find out in a very short time if the buyer is legally allowed to make the purchase.
For private citizens not to be allowed to own machine guns?
Actually, there's been no movement afoot since 1934 to modify the requirements for machine gun ownership. Those are stiff enough even for the anti-gun crowd not to bother with.
Yet.
The NRA is not supported by gun manufacturers?
I didn't say that.
Do gun manufacturers not contribute to political parties, like the NRA, to press their agenda?
Of course they do. Gun manufacturers also contribute to the NRA. What I said was, the NRA is PRIMARILY supported by its two million plus members.
You mean all of this time I thought that the NRA was there just to promote gun sales, and really, they're just there to protect gunowners' rights?
No, not "just," though that is a big part of what we do. We also train law enforcement, have a children's gun safety program, have a home defense training program - lots of good stuff. We don't sell or take out any ads promoting the sale of firearms. The gun manufacturers do that.
Excuse me while I let out a BIG gaffaw.
The NRA does indeed receive financial, logistical and other support from manufacturers.
Laugh all you like - no argument there. It's simply not where the bulk of their financial support comes from.
So let's get a little practical here. Make it a 72-DAY waiting period. The point is, they MANUFACTURE these things and anyone can get them. EVERYONE has them.
Are you still talking machine guns? That's nonsense.
The current system isn't working. Why, I've seen countless reports from police officers in some areas who say, "Hell, these guys are armed better than US!" Why the heck are these automatics so readily available?
Again, if we're talking machine guns (automatics), they're not readily available. However, there have been a good quantity in the hands of drug dealers and terrorists which have been smuggled in, along with drug shipments. Possession of these is already a Federal offense.
And what does Clinton have to do with this?
Easier to understand if you read
thisWhere is this going to stop? Are rocket-propelled grenade launchers next?
There is no move on the part of anyone to make private ownership of RPGs legal.
The average dope dealer could easily afford one, but since you brought up the Constitution, I respect you enough to ask you this:
When you read that section of the Constitution, does it say that individuals have the right to bear arms,
Yes.
or does it say that a citizenry has the right to take up arms against a government it believes is corrupt, evil, etc. (I'm paraphrasing.)
No, that's the Declaration of Independence.
Constitutional interpretation is always open to just that--interpretation and differing opinions. Plus, these guys were around 225 years ago. They didn't have AK-47s back then, but they were smart enough to allow AMENDING the Constitution when it makes sense to do so.
What the militia laws of the 18th century required was for every male citizen to own, among other things, a musket, a bayonet and ammunition - the "assault weapon" of its day. Fowling pieces and rifles (hunting arms) were acceptable, but the musket and bayonet (military arms) was preferred. And there is NO provision for amending the Constitution simply by "interpreting" it. It means what it says.
Gee, just what we would have needed in that situation--people running out to buy guns who never held or used a firearm in their lives, like ME. They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, but you're saying it's okay to put a loaded weapon in their hands. But the NRA supports this position while at the same time they say to support safe, responsible gun ownership?
You, as an educated, safe, knowledgaeable gunowner, how can you support this?
We do promote safe, responsible gun ownership. We also oppose restrictions on the rights of the law-abiding to obtain and possess the means to protect themselves. The two are not mutually exclusive. Did I not tell you NOT to buy a gun, or if you decided to do so, get training FIRST?
Can you NOT concede that they just want to sell more guns here, and they could give a crap about what actually happens to you?
No, I cannot. I know what their positions are from being a member, not by listening to what I'm told by the network news.
But wouldn't it be hysterical if I arrived home early tonight and DID find my wife in bed with the mailman!?
THEN, I WOULD CONCEDE ALL OF YOUR POINTS!!!
My personal postscript to the Europeans here:
Can you believe that this debate still goes on in this country as outlined above? The U.S. is number ONE--in murders and accidental gun deaths, yet culture and beliefs keep this discussion going on ad infinitum.
Actually, accidental gun deaths are very rare - you hear about virtually all of them because they make the national news. And isn't it ironic that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws are the highest in gun related crimes?
OK, I get up around 0300 (3 AM to you civilians) so I'm done for the night.
Joseph
by Nitetimes » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:59 pm ...around here a "shooting range" is an abandoned gravel pit, someplace ya find in the woods or your backyard...if ya don't live in the city
