Solar panel corner mounting brackets spoilers & wire entry

[Esteban]

SC, you and Bruce both have bigger campers needing more power for all your electrical goodies than I plan to use. Don't plan on using a water pump or an entertainment unit. I plan to use a fridge/freezer like a Truckfridge, Dometic, or ARB, all LED lights, and power outlets.

I do plan to use a battery monitor to measure my solar harvest, power usage and battery state of charge. A Victron Victron BMV 600 or a Trimetric Trimetric seem to be the best ones to choose from. I could start out with an inexpensive monitor like an INNOVA 3721 Battery and Charging System Monitor and move up $$ to a better one later on.

In time I might use two monitors, a simple one in the cabin, and the Victron or Trimetric in the area of the galley electrical compartment near the PD 4045, battery master switch, 12 volt DC outlet, and 120 volt AC outlet.

[Shadow Catcher]

Steve, I have a Morningstar RM1 in the galley area which give voltage from the panel and voltage from the battery/solar controller, nice but not particularly informative. The Victron is in the cabin where I can monitor the state of charge. One of the things I like about the Victron is that display is LCD is not lit unless you hit the button so is not lit up at night. To check SOC all I have to do is open the door and look. The Trimetric uses a red LED display as far as I can see it is lit all the time (correct me if I am wrong).
One thing to remember what you think you think you want now, may not be what you will want in the future, so additional outlets both 12V and 120AC. All of our fuses and circuit breakers are in use and yes we have it all but it can sneak up on you when you find you can

[Lgboro]

Trimetric does have lights that stay on all the time so I made a cover to solve that. My television also has a red light so I put a switch so it cuts power to the outlet the tv is plugged into. Problems solved easily and cheaply.

[Esteban]

Steve,
One thing to remember what you think you think you want now, may not be what you will want in the future, so additional outlets both 12V and 120AC. All of our fuses and circuit breakers are in use and yes we have it all but it can sneak up on you when you find you can

Yes, I plan more outlets in the cabin and galley than just the ones mentioned above. Where and how many is not set in stone. I like the flexibility a PD4045 enables for using plenty of circuits. Most of the dozen 12 volt dc circuits are spoken for. Plan for at least three 120 volt outlets: galley above counter, near the lower galley slide-out for refer/freezer, 1 or more inside cabin, maybe 1 outside for who knows what? Fun party lights!? I plan 6 or more 12 volt outlets: 1 or more in the upper galley, 1 in the lower galley for fridge, 2 in the front of the cabin, 2 in rear of the cabin.

I'm undecided if I want the full featured monitor in the galley or in the cabin. Which location is "best?" Eventually I want two battery monitors. One in the galley and another in the cabin so it's easy to check battery and solar power whether I'm inside or outside or it's daytime or nighttime.

A simple plug-in battery monitor like an Innova to be used wherever I want seems like a good one to start out with to save $$. Then upgrade to a full featured Victron or Trimetric. The smaller size of the Victron is easier to install if space is tight. The plug-in monitor then becomes my second monitor.

Thanks for sharing your ideas on how comfortably the Victron and Trimetric monitors are illuminated. Looks like the Trimetric is OK in the galley. Its always on red lights may be bothersome in the cabin. The Victrons light which can be turned on and off, is less intrusive, and could be used in either location.

I don't know where a RM1 would be needed, unless it replaced the plug-in.

[bdosborn]

He said to expect an actual 132 to 135 wattage output from a 125 watt panel which could produce close to 8 amps per hour. So six hours of sunlight might produce up to 48 amp hours in a very best case.

Mike suggested I use a Morningstar "Sunsaver" 12 Volt 10 Amps Solar Panel Charge Controller with LVD charge controller with a low voltage disconnect. They are $68.00.

Wow, that really surprises me that he says his panels put out more than nameplate. I'll bet you a jelly donut that you *NEVER* see over 110 watts, especially if its laying flat. I have several UL Solar panels and none of them have ever put out nameplate power, even when angled.

The Sunsaver is a great controller, but think about whether you need the LV disconnect. It's rated for the output of the controller - 10 amps. That may or may not be enough for all your electrical loads.

Bruce

P.S. I have the Trimetric 2025-RV and you can turn off the display. BTW, I love the LED display, it's much more readable than an LCD type.

[Esteban]

UL solar 125 watt module

MODEL: STP125P-NS
Power at STC(Pm): 125 WATT
Maximum power voltage (Vpm): 18 Volt
Maximum power current (Ipm): 7.11 Amp
Open circuit voltage (Voc): 21.9 Volt
Short circuit current (Isc): 7.68 Amp
Tolerance: ±5%

Bruce I do not expect to actually get 7.11 AH (nor 8 AH) with the solar panel flat on the roof. Mike from UL may have been giving me a bit of a sales pitch though that was not the tone of our conversation. He was very helpful answering my questions and there was more that we talked about than I wrote here. He suggested I test the panel on receipt and not to be surprised if it had 132 - 135 watts. (Perhaps a sales pitch.) Not a guarantee it would. Apparently some do. He described the output that may be possible in the best circumstances. As I wrote I'd be happy to get 25 - 30 AH daily from solar.

P.S. I have the Trimetric 2025-RV and you can turn off the display. BTW, I love the LED display, it's much more readable than an LCD type.

Still learning. Thank you. Looks good.

The Sunsaver is a great controller, but think about whether you need the LV disconnect. It's rated for the output of the controller - 10 amps. That may or may not be enough for all your electrical loads.

I'm confused by the bold part of your statement. The 125 watt panel puts out less than 10 amps. I do not understand why a 10 amp Sunsaver could be under capacity. Its charging the battery.

Aren't my loads what I draw from the battery by way of the PD 4045 which has well over 10 amps capacity?

Which Sunsaver model do you recommend I use?

My goal, if it reasonably can be accomplished, is to have a solar power system to keep my battery (nearly) full on most days. Which would make camping off grid nicer for an extended number of days. I can (will be able to) recharge by driving or plugging into AC power too. Three ways to charge the battery for redundancy.

If the TD is parked when I go for a drive I could put the dc refer in the car, as SC does, (you too?) to conserve battery power in the TD

[bdosborn]

The Sunsaver has two terminals that are the LV disconnect. You can hook loads up to those terminals, lights in this photo. If the battery voltage drops to around 11.5v, the controller disconnects the load to try and prevent damage to the battery.



The problem is that 10 amps won't go as far as you think and it wouldn't seem to be much protection unless all your loads run through it. Gus and I had a good discussion on this topic awhile back....

Clicky

Bruce

[Esteban]

Bruce, I read your clicky. Good information. Have read it before. The only big power draw I plan at this time is a fridge/freezer (future purchase) which has a low power disconnect with several settings. Your link will take more time to comprehend more fully.

Don't see a need to run LED lights through a low power disconnect or the Sunsaver.

May want something to disconnect the TD battery from the tow vehicle battery when parked...seems like a nice option to have. Needs more thought and $$.

I will have a main battery disconnect functionally similar to this one Waterproof Battery Kill Safety Shut Off Disconnect Switch 2 Pole or Cal Term 41860 Switch Battery Cut Off

My loads (#1) in your illustration will go through a PD4045 PD4045 45 Amp Inteli-Power Mighty Mini Power Center which is not a low power disconnect.

http://www.equipt1.com/companies/%20Fridges/product-nl/522516-indel-b-travel-box-41

The Travel Box line offers an energy saving (ECO) function to extend battery life, a turbo (MAX) function to cool things as fast as possible when power is available, multifunction electronic thermostat that allows simple and economic management of the fridge, 12/24V DC and 115/230V AC power capability with automatic switching between voltages, and a 3 level battery protection system to protect against draining your battery. All these high end features are standard on the entire line.

[bdosborn]

You still need a fuse or a breaker between your power center and the battery, why not use a circuit breaker instead of a battery disconnect? Kill two birds with one stone...
Bruce

[Esteban]

You still need a fuse or a breaker between your power center and the battery, why not use a circuit breaker instead of a battery disconnect? Kill two birds with one stone...
Bruce

I plan to have two switches on the battery positive cable. A circuit breaker/switch by the battery and a master battery switch in the galley near the power center. I realize its one more than needed. I like the convenience and extra measure of safety to be able to turn off battery power in the battery compartment and/or in the galley area.

Longer more detailed version:

One will be a manual reset circuit breaker Hi-Amp Surface Mount Circuit Breakers - Manual Reset (Switchable) near the battery. Probably 30 amp. The battery will be in its own compartment to the rear of the cabin/galley bulkhead with a cabinet door opening into the cabin. It will hold the battery and the Morningstar solar controllor. The positive battery cable will connect to the circuit breaker/switch in this compartment and from there (CB) to the battery master switch in the galley. Plan to use either 4 or 6 gauge for the battery cables Custom Battery Cable Assembly. I plan to fuse the positive wire Mini Blade ATM Inline Fuse Holders from the Morningstar to the battery positive. The negative battery cable will connect to an Insulated Terminal Bus Bar by the power center. The terminal bar will be used for DC circuit negative wires in the teardrop and will be grounded to the trailer frame.

The PD4045 power center will be inside an upper electrical compartment in the galley. The PD4045 will have a 30 amp master circuit breaker for incoming 120 volt AC power. On one side of the electrical compartment facing an upper shelf I plan to have a battery cut off switch like the ones i linked to earlier, a battery monitor (Trimetric, Victron, or a plug-in one), an AC outlet, and one or more dc outlets Marinco 12V Receptacle. As I've written I go back and forth on whether to have the "main" battery monitor in the galley area or in the cabin. All DC circuits will be fused ATC and ATO Fuses inside the PD power center. All AC circuits will have 15 0r 20 amp circuit breakers in the PD4045. All AC outlet circuits will have a GFCI. The AC power inlet will probably be a Furrion 30 amp inlet. 10/3 wire SJOOW 10/3 Portable Power Cable will be used between the AC power inlet and the power center.

I hope I've got it covered with all these fuses, circuits breakers, and GFCI outlets.

Plan to have a junction box attached to the trailer frame. May fuse a ground wire ATC and ATO Waterproof Inline Fuse Holders attached to the frame from it. Will use 7 Way Plug Inline Trailer Cord from the front of the tongue. Will split it with ring terminals in the junction box under the trailer frame. Then use more 7 wire from the junction box to a terminal block near the power center.

My long version is to get details down in writing. May come back later to organize and condense the ideas in this discussion.

[bdosborn]

Here's some quick comments:

- I think you'll use the additional battery disconnect once, probably when you first test it. Then it will just sit there looking pretty as there really isn't anything you need to do with it that the circuit breaker won't do. At least that's what happened to me, I never used the battery disconnect after I put it in.

- You don't need to wire your solar controller directly to the battery, in fact you don't want to. Terminals on the battery corrode. Land your solar charge wire on a 20 amp fuse in the DC distribution section of the PD 4045. Then you have a fuse and you don't have to worry about another terminal corroding off.

- You probably won't need 30 amps for you AC side and 20 amp plugs are a lot easier find in the real world. Do you have a 30 amp receptacle in your garage? A 30 amp cord is big, heavy, and expensive.

Bruce

[Esteban]

Here's some quick comments:

- I think you'll use the additional battery disconnect once, probably when you first test it. Then it will just sit there looking pretty as there really isn't anything you need to do with it that the circuit breaker won't do. At least that's what happened to me, I never used the battery disconnect after I put it in.

- You don't need to wire your solar controller directly to the battery, in fact you don't want to. Terminals on the battery corrode. Land your solar charge wire on a 20 amp fuse in the DC distribution section of the PD 4045. Then you have a fuse and you don't have to worry about another terminal corroding off.

- You probably won't need 30 amps for you AC side and 20 amp plugs are a lot easier find in the real world. Do you have a 30 amp receptacle in your garage? A 30 amp cord is big, heavy, and expensive.

Bruce

Bruce, The circuit breaker Hi-Amp Surface Mount Circuit Breakers - Manual Reset (Switchable) will be close to the battery. I might have chosen to use a fuse instead Maxi Inline Fuse Holder. It comes down to my design preference. If a fuse blows I have to carry or buy a spare(s). With a circuit breaker I just reset it. Easier. Also it gives me an easy, within an arms reach, way to temporarily disconnect the the positive battery cable when I do any work in the battery compartment which I may do from time to time. The cost difference between a fused set up and the breaker is nominal to me.

I want the "main" battery disconnect readily accessible and obviously visible in the galley electrical area. The cost again is nominal. About $15 to $35 depending on which battery disconnect switch I choose. The switches have lugs on their back ends that are easy to attach the positive battery cable to. The hot back side will be (safely out of reach)inside the upper electrical compartment.

Yes, I could connect the solar controller to the PD4045. Might do so. The galley electrical compartment would get a little more crowded to do it. I'll have plenty of room in the battery compartment (plan: 7.5" deep,19" wide, 20" tall) for the Morningstar and think it will be an easier installation. If I chose to I could connect the positive lead to the PD4045 instead of to the battery. Which makes things more complicated, I think, because that bypasses the battery circuit breaker and the battery cut off switch. So an additional power cut off switch would be needed for the solar power positive lead. The battery will be inside protected from the weather. I do not think corrosion of battery leads is much of a worry...particularly if checked and kept clean from time to time. (More safely done if I turn off the nearby circuit breakers manual switch.)

Again, I'm more comfortable using 10/3 wire from the 30 amp. power inlet to the power center than a lower gauge, less safe, wire. About 3 ft. at $1.28/ft. is well worth it. About the same cost as a couple of jelly donuts. Back to preferences, yes some cost could be cut to use a 15 or 20 amp power inlet...which may make the teardrop under powered at times.

My AC outlets in the camper will probably be rated for 15 amps. Could use 20 amp ones but don't see the need and they're harder to find/buy. I have a 30 amp outlet near my garage. You're right that a 30 amp power cord costs more and is heavier. I have an adapter so could use one of my work shop extension cords for awhile. Googled 30 amp cord and here's one for forty bucks: 30 amp extension cord Hardly awful $. Maybe the cost of a couple dozen fancy jelly donuts! Fewer donuts: 25-Feet 30-Amp Rv Extension Cord or RV 30 Amp 10-Foot 10/3 Bright Extension Cord

[bdosborn]

If I chose to I could connect the positive lead to the PD4045 instead of to the battery. Which makes things more complicated, I think, because that bypasses the battery circuit breaker and the battery cut off switch.

Hmm, it shouldn't if you wire it right. BTW, being out in the weather doesn't have much to do with battery corrosion since its an electrochemical reaction. I use battery terminal spray to keep it under control even though my batteries are inside. Good luck with your build...

Bruce

[Esteban]

Bruce (and SC), I value your expertise and ideas. You are both pioneering the use of solar power on a small camper. You each share your expertise, ideas, favored solutions, successes, and some missteps to avoid. Thank you very much.

This is mostly new to me. I'm trying to design a solar and electrical system to best meet my needs and capabilities. There are many different ways to do it that can work well. And some that might not work well, may waste money, or may be unsafe...which I want to avoid doing. These systems are costly. Finding the right balance of readily available parts, cost, quality, usefulness, and simplicity or complexity is not (always) easy. Hopefully others may learn from this too to design their own solar electrical system and avoid some pitfalls.

Most pre-packaged RV solar systems I find available are very expensive. Many do not fit my wants and needs for a teardrop trailer. Some have parts of questionable or inferior quality. So a well thought out custom system is what I want.

If my roof was a little wider many, higher capacity, solar panels are available. Many cost less than the 125 watt panel I plan to use...which is frustrating. I would use a higher capacity panel if I could find one that fits my roof and budget. I gave serious consideration to using an mppt controller to get the highest possible harvest from a 125 watt panel since I cannot find a solar panel with a higher output that is not too large (long) to use.

Land your solar charge wire on a 20 amp fuse in the DC distribution section of the PD 4045. Then you have a fuse and you don't have to worry about another terminal corroding off.

was a twist and turn idea for me trying to get to the bottom of what you were suggesting. Mixing metaphors...Its still foggy. I want a PD4045 but have not purchased one (yet) so have still to learn its ins and outs...which seem to be somewhat confusing to many folks here.

There are so many twists and turns to think about. OK, a new turn. I can wire a Morningstar "Sunsaver" 12 Volt 10 Amps Solar Panel Charge Controller positive output with a Mini Blade ATM Inline Fuse Holder connected to the input side of the Hi-Amp Surface Mount Circuit Breakers - Manual Reset (Switchable) in the battery compartment, instead of directly to the battery or PD4045. Easily done. The positive power from both the solar and battery can still be safely switched on or off by a Battery Cut Off...without an additional switch. Easy peasey. Less opportunity for damage from terminal corrosion.

New thought. Never have used Anderson Powerpoles. A pair on the incoming hot lead to the solar controller might be handy.

I probably would have bought "jelly rings" from an auto parts store to protect battery terminals. Now I know to ask for battery terminal spray. Thank you.

[Esteban]

AM Solar amsolar.com has a 12 volt 160 watt solar panel go160_solar_panel that I wish I could fit on the roof of my teardrop. With it there would be plenty of power for a 12 volt fridge freezer, lights, etc. Its 26" x 58" so just a little too long for my needs. If you are building a 5 foot wide, or wider, teardrop trailer it may fit on yours. Their specs say it weighs 25.5 lbs. and it puts out Impp = 8.65 amps @ maximum power point.

Browsing AM Solars website is a good learning experience. They have several plans system_wiring_overviews of different sized systems you can use for design inspiration.