New 5x8 (5x10) off road build thoughts, feedback?

[StuckIntheCity]

Hi Everyone, I have been reading topics on TNTTT for several months and have finally become a member. I am getting ready to plan a cargo conversion build (hopefully start in the next several months) and was hoping to get some feedback on my plans. I've browsed through many many topics on the site, but there seems to be endless advice, so I'm sorry if some of my questions have been answered in places I have not yet discovered.

If my wallet was bottomless I would simply buy a Moby1 trailer XTR trailer, as that has really spurned my interest in getting an off road ready teardrop.

My goal- My wife and I live in Denver, and head up to the mountains in summit county and in southern colorado as much as possible, weather permitting. I am an avid fly fisherman, and many of these trips include a visit to the nearest river, or simply revolve around going fishing. I take 3-4 trips a year out of state to WY/UT/MT to go fishing. I like the teardrop/cargo conversion idea as the ability to hook up my trailer to my car with all my camping gear ready to go, pull over and camp wherever looks good, prepare a meal without the trouble of setting up stoves and pulling out boxes of cooking gear, being able to wash my hands/face/quick shower w hot water after a day of hiking or fishing, and being able to climb inside and go to sleep without pitching a tent, blowing up and air mattress etc. I do not see myself spending a lot of time inside the trailer aside from sleeping/relaxing.

Below are a number of topics that I believe I've thought out but I would appreciate any feedback on

-cargo conversion as opposed to teardrop build: I am a very proficient woodworker, but not a welder. Buying a cargo trailer would save me a lot of time and effort in this regard (but not money I understand). Additionally, I would get a trailer made to be a shorter height (if I could not find one with a low height) to be roughly the height of my tow vehicle (which will be a grand cherokee w diesel). I am thinking of going with Haulmark trailers….

-size: I would like to try to make this work in a 5x8, but may have to go with a 5x10. It sounds like interior sleeping length should be at least 6'6'', which would leave me with less than 24" behind the sleeping compartment for sink/stove pull out/cooler slide out/water tank/water pump in the trailer model I am looking at. Have people who have done a 5x8 conversion wished they had more room? My main concern is fitting in a sizeable water tank. Also thoughts on V-nose vs flat front? The V-nose would give me a bit more interior length, but would be less ideal with tongue storage

-suspension/axle: although most of my driving would be on highway, I do take long trips on potholed bumpy dirt roads/jeep trails, and definitely want a suspension that will not shake all my hard work to bits. I have read the various arguments over leaf spring/torsion axles/trailing arm combos. My overall take is this: the best for offroad will be the trailing arm combos, which are a lot more expensive if installed by 2nd party, and require welding skills which I don't have. I see a fair number of arguments that torsion axles are better than leaf spring, but difficult to repair and need to be replaced if broken, and are more expensive. Most people simply go w leaf springs out of ease and price, and some add shocks of some sort. I will want to add additional clearance to this trailer, and it sounds like using a torsion axle mounted at the appropriate start angle will easily give me the clearance I want. This would be a $250 upgrade from the 3500lb drop axle w standard springs, which I would not hesitate to pay if it is indeed an upgrade in the suspension for offroading over the leaf springs. Any thoughts? An alternative would be a different leaf spring setup that could give me better clearance, but I don't know how much work this addition would cost to change out the factory leaf springs.

-I would have the trailer equiped with an elongated tongue (probably 24" extension) for extra storage/tongue boxes

-I plan to buy two teardrop style doors and install them myself as opposed to having the trailer company put on their standard doors. The teardrop doors have windows and screens, which I want.

-interior height: if size was no issue, I imagine a 6.5' interior height would be ideal to allow for standing. However as the interior will really just be for sleeping, and I will want to keep the overall trailer height at or below my tow vehicle, standing height is out of the question. The added ground clearance I am interested in will also decrease the possible interior height. Is 48" a reasonable interior height? I will figure out the maximum height once I know the ground clearance with the suspension/axle I ultimately decide on, but would appreciate some guidance here.

-rear door: I am thinking that the side by side rear door probably makes the most sense to provide some wind protection for the kitchen area, but I would have to make or buy some type of awning. An alternative I was thinking was getting a ramp style door and mounting in backwards, having it pivot upward on gas-struts to act as an awning, and would be a more typical teardrop style hatch, but that would leave me needing something for wind protection (I think). Has anyone done their rear door in this fashion? Any thoughts?

-heater: definitely want a propane heater, and from my research it seems like a propex heater is probably the best way to go as it is warm, reliable and mounted to the underside of the trailer frame or an outside all. Of course this is one of the more expensive heaters...

-sink/hot water/shower: I understand the simplicity of not having any plumbing, but being able to rinse off my hands/shower/have water for dishes/cooking is a luxury that I definitely am willing to pay for and put in the extra effort to install. Any thoughts on a minimum size water tank keeping in mind I will have a handheld shower nozzle? Any specific model propane on demand water heater that people like? Best water pump for this application?

-awning: one of the most appealing things about the teardrop is that it still keeps most of the aspects of camping outside. However I've run into enough foul weather (on a regular basis) that having an enclosed (or enclosable) outside space is very important to me. Ive seen a number of styles of awnings, both premanufactured and home made, and fewer with attachable sidewalls. I have been most impressed with the Hannibal awning system with sidewalls (http://hannibal-safari-usa.mybigcommerc ... al-awning/). Of course this is also the most expensive unfortunately. But I think having an awning with optional sidewalls that could make a large enclosed space outside of the trailer to use in cold/windy/blowing rain/snow conditions would be worth the price. Any thoughts?

-fantastic fan roof vent/fan: this seems like the most appropriate choice for a roof vent that can also signficantly help cool a trailer, at what seems to be a reasonable price.

-AC? obviously a luxury, but trying to sleep inside a metal box when it is hot out would be miserable. Have many people gone with AC units? Are they very large? Loud? Should I get one for summer camping in CO/WY/UT/MT?

-stove: I love cooking and want a reasonable size stove. The Partner 2 seems like the most recommended, most reliable moderately size stove I've read about. More expensive than many camping stoves, but probably worth the extra cost for me.

-propane manifold: I must admit I have not read up much on this yet. I will have at least 3 propane appliances, or maybe 4(stove, water heater, cabin heater, maybe AC). Are there manufactured manifolds to connect your propane tank to 3/4/5… propane appliance connections? Do people plumb these themselves? Is there typically a gas cuttoff to each appliance at the manifold or only the single shutoff on the tank itself?

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read my rambling, and thanks for any feedback on any of these topics in advance! Hopefully my plan isn't dismembered by advice from all of you who have already taken the time to build...

Jody

[piperpilot3tk]

Wow Jody....so many questions..... You asked for an opinion, and an opinion is what your gonna get!

First thing I would do is try and borrow a 6x12 trailer and tow it with the turbo diesel Grand Cherokee. With that tow vehicle I think you will have no problem easily towing something larger than you have planned. Usually the TV and towing mileage dictates the size of a CT conversion for most people, and I think that since you have a very capable TV, you are selling yourself short on usable, comfortable living space for no reason. My current vehicle is an 06 Unlimited Rubicon and it struggles to tow my 6x12, however I traded for my trailer and was actually planning on going with something similar to your idea, but now that I own the 6x12 and have camped in several times, I think I will stop borrowing my friends 06 Canyon and buy a used full size truck. More reasons to consider something bigger is to spec out a 5x10or 5x12 is that by the time you pay to have a unit built with the mods you require, you would have spent less on a bigger trailer. Also I too require more ground clearance on my trailer, so I installed a Dexter Over/Under kit to gain 3-1/2" extra ride height, and by the time you raise the trailer it will most likely be in the airstream Behring the GC, and the perceived advantage of going with a short wall trailer will be lost to wind drag.

You and I agree that a little extra complexity pays off for much increased creature comfort. I have added a 6000 BTU A/C to my trailer on the front wall that my Honda EU2000 will easily power. If you go with a roof top RV A/C you will have to have a 3000 watt generator minimum or shore power to stay cool and get a good nights sleep in the summer time! I will also have below deck water tanks and a propane instant water heater for washing up. Without raising the trailer it is very difficult to install water tanks having any considerable volume. Also the three to four inches of tank below the frame rails will limit you to on road only use use only unless you raise the ride height.

You say you are a very proficient wood worker, but not a welder. My question is why not? Doing projects like these throughout the years is how most of us learn new skills and a welding job of this scale is a piece of cake! Since you can obviously use a measuring tape and a saw, you have half the welding fabrication skill already mastered! To modify a trailer frame or build one from scratch is not only easy, but fun and relatively inexpensive. There are two tools you will need, a saw such as a portaband or a saws all, and a MIG or wire welder. Suitable wire welders are very inexpensive on the used market ( less than half of new cost) and you could always resell the equipment to recuperate the cost when the job is done!

You asked, and you received. Remember opinions are worth what you pay for them! Good luck

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

I'm thinking one of those Australian trailers for you
When it's all folded out its the size of a house





http://www.google.com/search?q=australian+off+road+trailers&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=rjS-UtXuL4_noAS1l4GwDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA&biw=1024&bih=672&dpr=2


Then get the air suspension- watch the video


http://info.kimberleykruiser.com/blog/bid/238612/The-joy-of-air-suspension-with-lightweight-off-road-caravans

[OverTheTopCargoTrailer]

Here is another one for you , just might be perfect !!




http://www.imagine-trailvan.co.za/Comfortvan/Comfort_Overview.html

[piperpilot3tk]

Maybe this would work?
http://www.weiscrafttrailers.com/ponderosa.html

[Rainier70]

I camp in the high country of Idaho, Wyo, Utah, Colorado. I would hold off on putting an AC in until you have camped in it a bit. If you aren't in it much in the day your cooling needs may be very minimal. I use a vent with a ten inch fan, and it cools my trailer off fairly quickly when I come in from fishing. Nights in the high country can get downright cold even in the middle of summer. I would put some form of heat in way before AC. A MaxAir cover over the vent allows me to leave it open in the daytime and not worry about the sudden thunderstorms.

My CT is a 6 x 12 with a 6 ft height. I have a shower-bathroom setup inside. I really like the full stand up height for me, but I am sure that I do pay for it in mpg.

I have just the leaf springs, and the trailer does bounce on some unexpected rocks etc. I hope to add shocks to it sometime this year. I travel a lot of gravel/forest service roads, but so far I haven't had a need to raise the height of my ct. If you are doing rougher 4wheeler roads you will probably need to raise the ct as well as consider changing your hitch setup. There is a lot of advice on that type of changes on the Expedition Portal Forums also.

On the heater: look at the one GoneFishin and BC Dave put in....the Dickinson 9000 propane heater. I put in a Nu-way 2000 propane stove. Both the Dickinson and the Nu-Way are fully vented to the outside.

Dickinson --- http://dickinsonmarine.com/propane.php you can find them on sale for less

Nu-way --- http://www.nuwaystove.com/model2000.php It uses inside air for combustion so leave a vent open. You also would need to buy the pipe and damper separately.

[Rainier70]

I didn't see any mention of plans to insulate your ct. You probably just didn't mention it, but I would be sure to do it. That is probably the most important change I made to my ct along with putting a vent and heater in.

[Rainier70]

A couple of more thoughts.....

I have seen a ct on here that did make the back ramp/door hinge from the top. Sorry that I can't remember where it is.

You might look at tents and awnings that are designed to go on the back of SUVs etc.

[lrrowe]

I have traded emails with Car Mate trailers and they do offer a "awning" door (raises up) but it was way too expensive for me to consider. I think it was around another $1000 option or something like that if I remember correctly. I am going to go with barn doors and make an awning to go over the doors when open.

I too am going to try it without AC at first even though in the East, we do not seem to have those high temp swings. If I go with one, I read somewhere that the roof mounted ones will require a higher output generator if used, then will the window type. Don't hold me to it, but I would verify that the top mounted units will require a 3000W generator and a you could get by with a 2000W one for the window ones. At least that is the information that I will try to verify for myself in the near future.

[Rainier70]

This is an interesting setup, but I don't know who it belongs to.

[lrrowe]

Very close to the idea I had in mind. I would try to make a collapsible awning top and then drape the side coverings. I am thinking of using conduit, making a rectangular ring and stretching some fabric across it. Lightweight and collapsible will be my goal.

[StuckIntheCity]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, much appreciated. I do plan to learn to weld at some point, but I would like to get this project going before I have time to learn to weld and acquire all the necessary tools, hence the conversion instead of building the whole thing. I would like to avoid the AC, and I only plan on having 12V DC power supply, so that may rule AC out completely which I'm fine with, I'll just have to park in the shade....The rear-awning photos with Cargo doors looks pretty nice, do you think it would be necessary for the rear drapes if you already have the side by side cargo doors? I guess more wind protection can't hurt, I'm just wondering if it is overkill. The additional lift in the dexter lift kit may just do the trick for the extra ground clearance I am interested in.

Anyone else have any advice on minimum interior height? I definitely want to keep this trailer small so that I can take it up tight roads, and make maneuvering more manageable. Even if my tow vehicle can handle a much higher load I still want to keep this thing as small as possible, and I think stand up height is out of the question for me.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

[Rainier70]

The back wrap around in the galley area maybe more than is needed. I thought the roof piece was interesting. It appears to be hinged on there, but I think something very light could be easily attached and detached. It is also simple to buy awning c-rail, and attach a tarp/canopy in it. There are several people on here that have used the c-rail for awnings.


You might find some interesting tips on building for off road travel in meach4x4's build. viewtopic.php?f=42&t=32431

[lrrowe]

Anyone else have any advice on minimum interior height? I definitely want to keep this trailer small so that I can take it up tight roads, and make maneuvering more manageable. Even if my tow vehicle can handle a much higher load I still want to keep this thing as small as possible, and I think stand up height is out of the question for me.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

The CT I am looking at has an interior height of 70 in (5' 10"), I being 5' 9', find that running a little tight. And if that demension is the interior height from floor to the roof channel, then I would lose another 1/4" to 1/2" depending on insulation and ceiling material. I am not sure I would be comfortable with that tightness.

I can order added height in 3" increments from the manufacturer I am looking at and I think I will do that. I am considering 3 inches versus the normal 6" increments. This is strictly related to the wind resistance factor related to exterior height, otherwise I would go for 6" more. What is interesting is that I will end up paying the same amount for 3" as I would for 6". I am rationalizing that this is proper because the amount of extra vertical uprights and aluminum skin is not that much of a factor in the total cost analysis. I have not really done the homework to verify it as since I cannot do anything about it. I will just accept it and move on.

In summary, I think the interior overhead clearance is worth the added cost of about $13 a linear foot in trailer length. Since I will be towing it with a 2012 F150 with a cab over the bed, I believe the exterior height with 3 more inches will not affect me that much (at least I am hoping for that).

Bob

[dustboy]

Sounds like a great project, Jody, you've clearly given it a lot of thought already.

-I would go for the 5x10, unless you're worried about the extra length off-road. You will find a way to use it! Good call on the diesel Cherokee, I believe all SUV's and pickups should be available with diesel, and so few are. Doubt you will have any more trouble with the extra weight of a 5x10.

-A leaf spring suspension is far easier to tweak. You will likely want to soften the ride, as it will come set up to handle the full 3500 lb. With a leaf spring you just pull out leaves until it rides the way you want. Also, it's fairly simple to convert it to sprung-over and gain 3-4 inches of clearance.

-If you DIY the teardrop doors, you will be modifying the framing in the walls, this generally requires some welding. Like others have said, spend a little time with a MIG welder, you will wish you'd done it years earlier.

-48" interior height isn't much. Even with your bed flat on the floor, you might find it difficult to sit upright and change your shirt. But, people with short teardrops seem to be fine with it.

-I like my barn doors. They are simple, and provide instant wind block. Adding an awning overhead is also simple.

-I have tried using a portable Mr. Heater, but even though it claims to have a low oxygen shutoff, I don't trust it. Plus, without a thermostat it just gets too hot if you leave it on all night. I will be watching fleaBay for a Propex, but an Atwood or Suburban might be an option for less money.

-12 Gallons fresh water is enough for 2 people for a weekend if you are conservative and don't take showers. Add 2-3 gallons per shower use (or more!). I have 21 gallons and it lasts my family of 3 about 3 days, with no showers. We bring a full 5-gallon solar shower, but they only really get hot when you would rather jump in the river anyway.

Get the biggest tank you can fit, I like the Valterra black ABS tanks because you can add fittings using ABS glue. I use a little Flojet on-demand pump, 1 GPM, I have frozen one and it kept working after thawing. I am thinking about adding an accumulator to allow us to trickle the faucet and not have the pump burn itself out by pulsing.

-Fantastic Fan: YES. They are great. Some good deals on eBay. Forget the AC, you should be able to stay cool enough at night.

-The Partner stoves are nice. I have a new Coleman and it is a POS, regret selling my old heavy one. Might think about building in an RV-style cooktop.

-Oh yeah, batteries, Costco has a Group 27 deep cycle that is a good price.

Can't wait to see what you come up with!