Spring hanger torn off...probably my fault!

[48Rob]

W,

The photo only shows 2 bolts, but there are three, the other is hidden by the fender.

The angle supports the frame very well, and the adhesive (applied to very clean and solvent prepped surfaces) holds the angle to the frame. The bolts are just there for a backup, and to hold the pieces tight during setup.
There are no welds connecting the angle to the frame.

All my welding was done on the bench, as you suggest you will do, which is good as you can much more easily see and weld the parts.

The point I was making about just tacking the parts is that these are critical joints. If these welds fail, the axle can depart the trailer.
It would not likely be " the entire axle just rolls out, but first one weld, then likely the next weld on the same side, then another and the wheels will no longer run true with the tow car, but will go off sideways, creating a whipping motion that will probably crash both.
I mean absolutely no offense, but not knowing your welding skills I just want to point out that these welds are not the place to practice.

I'm not an engineer and so can't say if the extra cross braces are needed or not, but drilling extra holes in the bottom of a frame doesn't seem wise as it is in tension.

Rob

[KCStudly]

Adding too many bolts can actually have an adverse affect by weakening the frame. The flat bar washer on the opposite side from the angle might be enough to prevent the bolts from crushing the frame tube, but I would rather see anti-crush sleeves.

I take that back, I would rather see the thing stitch welded by a qualified welded and no bolts. +1 either practice on scraps until you are skilled enough to do it yourself, or cajole someone into giving you a hand. You must know someone in your racing circles that can help you out.

Re: the shackle hanger arrangement. The frame side bracket should be welded to the frame (are angle doubler) with the side of the 'C' laying on the under side of the member. This way the backbone of the 'C' acts like a gusset for the side pieces and the bracket is less likely to crush or fold over. If you put the 'C' with the back flat against the frame and the legs of the 'C' pointing down, there is no gusset effect and the legs of the bracket can fold over or crush more easily when tightening the shackle bolt. This is clearly explained on the Dexter website (somewhere) but a lot of people don't get it right.

Here is a hint of what I'm talking about. At the top of page 5 of this .pdf you can clearly see the dashed line at the rear of the shackle bracket indicating the gusset effect of the bracket laying flat to the frame.

[MtnDon]

Rob is correct on holes in the top and bottom faces of the rectangular frame tubes. A rectangular tube like that acts much like an I-beam as used in structural steel buildings. In the I-beam the vertical web more or less just holds the upper and lower flanges in place. The strength comes from the upper and lower flanges. Similarly the vertical side of the frame tube supplies the function of the I-beam web, when looking at just the vertical loading. It is the top and bottom faces of the rectangular tube that supply a major portion of the strength. The top and bottom faces do carry the lateral loads. .

I think the idea; frame reinforcement would be a deep U channel the fit over the frame tube like a glove. Sometimes if you mess with different size tubing with different gauge wall thickness you can get one that slips nicely over/in the other piece. In this case that would mean cutting one side on the tube off lengthwise; not easy w/o the right tools.


And what KCStudly mentioned about crush sleeves is a very good point. When you simply drill through a tube, insert the bolt and start tightening, the walls of the tube "cave in", deform inwards. Depending on big washers or plates is not always going to spread the clamp force out enough to eliminate deformation and maybe not prevent eventual loosening of the bolt over time.

[working on it]

I see that you are all agreed that I shouldn't weld it, or bolt it either. I have been bolting things together for many years, though my welding has just begun, so I'm relying on the bolts to hold it together 'til I can take it to a welder/weld shop (all my welding/racing friends have disappeared, gone somewhere, so I'm on my own). I was concerned with the compressibility of the rectangular tubing (1.5"x3") when I will run in the thru-bolts, so that's why I am going to use the 3/16" flat bar as a continuous washer. Since the 2"x2" angle will protrude past the 1.5" wide tubing, there will be a ledge for the bar stock to rest on. When tightening the assembly in place, the bar stock will ride on, be supported by, and form a "u channel" with the angle. Using 2.5"(or longer) 3/8"-16 bolts, I will evenly tighten all the bolts until I reach a minimal/starting point where actual torquing of the tubing will commence. I'll measure the bolt ends to see that they are all drawn in to the point where the tube is being compressed (It can't deform upwardly-the floor rests on it, it can't deform to either side nor bottom-the flat bar and angle have it in a "u". I'll give the locking nuts a quarter-turn to put the tubing in compression. The crush sleeve won't be needed, since the bar/angle need only be pulled in to a known distance (as measured on the bolt-ends). Outlined here:

torquing of hanger assembly (theory).png (61.99 KiB) Viewed 939 times

I'll still need to drill inlets for the heads of the bolts holding on the hangers (a supplemental fail-safe to the welds), with a 5/8" drill, to create as small a hole as needed. Again, PL adhesive will be liberally applied to all three surfaces of the frame tubing. Then, when the adhesive is cured, off to a PRO welder, for the stitch welds. Back to the hanger welding procedure: until recently, I'd never seen hangers intended to lay on their sides to weld (I've seen hangers bolted on or welded in the vertical position, like these:

hangers.jpg (49.64 KiB) Viewed 939 times

In fact, why would the holes be drilled into the tops of both front and rear hangers, if that was not their designed method of attachment? I do see the self-gusseting benefit of the other type, but I went with the bolt/weld procedure. I also set-up my hanger assemblies in a jig, so I could exactly match one to the other (+/- 1/32"), before I started bolting, then welding, each assembly together

spring hanger assemblies in jig.jpg (63.34 KiB) Viewed 939 times

At that point, I bolted each in square, then started welding. Then grinding. Then welding. Then grinding. All afternoon long. I took out the bolts, and whanged on them with my BFH without any effect. I'm not happy with my welds; I'd make a good bead, then spatter and "grapes". Grinding, filling, ad infinitum. Still having trouble seeing the work as it progresses: sunlight interfering with my helmet auto darkening too much (eventually I'll make room inside the shaded garage). I also don't think my flux-welder has the power to make welding 1/4" to 1/4" very easy (I made multiple passes). I cleaned them up after I was done, and tossed them in my HHR Panel. I'll take them to the welder at work for or . He might even use his big machine to burn them in a little more (I wish I had the electrical sorted out to fire up my stick welder!).

[MtnDon]

If the "spatter and grapes" always comes right after you have laid a good bead, and IF this is being done with the low cost wire feed welder, it could be because the welder has reached the point where it is hot and wants you to stop. I had a Century wire feed about 10 years ago that would do that. All was fine until it started getting too warm; the bead went to crap until I left it to cool.


There is something I do not understand and that is the PL adhesive. Will not the heat from welding a good deep penetrating bead make that stuff burn and muck up the weld? Weld areas should be clear of everything but shiny bare metal.

[KCStudly]

My small wire feed welder ran like crap on an extension cord. When I hard wired my garage it ran much better.

The PL will only cause problems welding.

[Dale M.]

Remember a conversation a while back about the size of welder you are buying.... Also Get a buddy who welds to show you the ropes.... Even a blond can be taught to MIG weld..... Solve your welding problems before you try to build a "structure".....

Weld indoors so no light in back of helmet.. Also refection from light colored shirt or jacket will flash into helmet from under your chin... Black is best ...

IF auto darkening helmet is to dark even on lightest settings, add more ambient light on weld area...

A good 120volt 140 amp wire feed welder is just about maxed out with 1/4 inch stock with single pass welds, try multi-pass... "Vee" notches and bevels and "some" gap are you friend in thick materials...

If welds are crappy then you technique needs work.... Gun motion/wire speed....

Lean you head over to where you can see what wire/arc/puddle are doing, if you can not see what going on welding by braille will give you poop welds....

If using a extension cord, if its not 12 gauge, its two small.... Hobart recommends a 12 gauge cord not to exceed 30 ft for their HH 140 machines and smaller... The bigger the cord in wire gauge the less voltage drop in cord, the better it can function...

Welcome to the dark side of fabrication....

Dale

[working on it]

I've really been too busy at work this week to reply (15.5 hours a day average x 5, plus 3.5 hours round-trip commuting). I did take the welded piece(s) to work Monday am, and had the opportunity to show it to the experienced welder. He approved it, commenting on the difficulty of 1/4" to 1/4" welding with a 125amp flux. He saw where I made long-duration spotwelds in several places to supplement the multipass beading. I asked if he wanted to use his big Lincoln on it; he said I had welded in plenty of solid material to do the job, and it didn't need re-doing. He also said that the grade eight bolt "safeties" were not needed, but I trust bolts more than any weld, so that's what I'm doing. He also said that I had as good a "welder's sunburn" as he'd ever seen (my neck-unshielded beneath my helmet- and inside elbows were beet red). I welded very closely (my helmet was only a foot away from the work), and I didn't even think about the UV. Next time, I'll use sleeves and a neck wrap. I'll also put a towel draping over the back of the helmet, to keep the shading consistent. As to the "spatter and grapes" occurring because of the welder not staying cool; possible, since I welded all afternoon (grinding also). I was using a 2 foot long 12gauge GFCI cord to power the welder. Perhaps it sapped some power, or maybe my home's (long-observed) line voltage fluctuations. I'm still waiting for my wife's cousin to fix my power supply problems. About the use of PL Adhesive: I'm only going to fill and surround the damaged metal and drilled out holes in the frame, to seal out water at those points.

PL Adhesive goes here.png (70.51 KiB) Viewed 877 times

Planned stitch welding would be not be directly in contact with the "cured" PL, so presumably it would not contaminate the welds. I'll add more PL to all possible water entry/collection points after the final stich welding is done, and prior to painting over the restructured frame. Proceeding to the attachment/cross-bracing phase tomorrow; I'll also trim the 3/16" flat stock to fit inside the wheel wells, drill pilot holes thru the angle to the frame, and temporarily attach it to start fabricating the bracing. Then cleaning all surfaces before mating parts, torqueing the bolts, and sealing same. Finally, maybe in another weekend or two, after mounting the new springs, I can re-measure for ordering the new axle and not use the measurements from the old axle. I just hope I can get it all done (since my new 75 hr workweeks and usual 18 hour commutes leave very little time for planning, working on the trailer, and sleeping!) in a few weeks, and in time for my April 25th trip to Beaver's Bend.

[working on it]

From my previous post...

I've really been too busy at work this week to reply (15.5 hours a day average x 5, plus 3.5 hours round-trip commuting).... Proceeding to the attachment/cross-bracing phase tomorrow; I'll also trim the 3/16" flat stock to fit inside the wheel wells, drill pilot holes thru the angle to the frame, and temporarily attach it to start fabricating the bracing. Then cleaning all surfaces before mating parts, torqueing the bolts, and sealing same. Finally, maybe in another weekend or two, after mounting the new springs, I can re-measure for ordering the new axle and not use the measurements from the old axle. I just hope I can get it all done (since my new 75 hr workweeks and usual 18 hour commutes leave very little time for planning, working on the trailer, and sleeping!) in a few weeks, and in time for my April 25th trip to Beaver's Bend.

Absolutely nothing accomplished yesterday, starting immediately after that posting; went to get new reciprocating saw blades to cut the 3/16" flat. Took the wife, since (a)she wanted a yard-wagon on sale at Northern, and (b)she wanted to ride in the new "loaner" truck I had while my HHR was in the shop (ignition key stuck on with engine running, at lunch Friday-3pm- luckily a dealership is located on the opposite corner rom work!). By the way, the 2014 (with only 2000 miles on it) Silverado "Texas Edition" crewcab with Mylink, and more bells and whistles than my older trucks, was great. If only I could've driven it for longer.... Well, anyway, as we were checking out at Northern, to head home, I got a call from the dealership (50 miles away) to inform me that it had fixed my HHR. So, with the wife in tow, I drove there-`saving an additional 45 miles to home and then there, if I had dropped her at home,first-. After leaving the dealership, with HHR packed with Northern-purchased tools and yard-wagon inside, my wife asked if "since we were so close to Ikea (60 miles closer than from home), could we go there, first, before going home?". There went the day.... While in Ikea, the rains came (gully-washer style), and I got soaked going to the car, standing in the rain, trying to cram in tons of stuff we bought there. So now, weakened by overwork and little sleep and general old-age, I am sick, but still have to go out into the cold wind to work under the trailer (my workspace requires the garage door open, wind blowing in, etc...). At least I bought another Ikea foam mattress while there, to double my three-inch trailer bedding (three-inch foam sleeps fine, six will be better). I've started to count-down the hours 'til the BB trip; I may have to draft the wife to help in the garage (NOT!..it won't happen).

[Redneck Teepee]

Remember a conversation a while back about the size of welder you are buying.... Also Get a buddy who welds to show you the ropes.... Even a blond can be taught to MIG weld..... Solve your welding problems before you try to build a "structure".....

Weld indoors so no light in back of helmet.. Also refection from light colored shirt or jacket will flash into helmet from under your chin... Black is best ...

IF auto darkening helmet is to dark even on lightest settings, add more ambient light on weld area...

A good 120volt 140 amp wire feed welder is just about maxed out with 1/4 inch stock with single pass welds, try multi-pass... "Vee" notches and bevels and "some" gap are you friend in thick materials...

If welds are crappy then you technique needs work.... Gun motion/wire speed....

Lean you head over to where you can see what wire/arc/puddle are doing, if you can not see what going on welding by braille will give you poop welds....

If using a extension cord, if its not 12 gauge, its two small.... Hobart recommends a 12 gauge cord not to exceed 30 ft for their HH 140 machines and smaller... The bigger the cord in wire gauge the less voltage drop in cord, the better it can function...

Welcome to the dark side of fabrication....

Dale

People think that if they buy all the equipment and gear they are weldors, not realizing that it takes good money for good equipment rated for the job at hand, let alone years/hours of experience not to mention good eyesight and the desire to learn and excell at it. I once had a neighbor who could not weld to save his life, but if you asked him, he wrote the book on it. The advice given would simply go in one ear and out the other because he wrote the book.....You are 100% correct Dale, everything is smooth when all the gears mesh, but if a tooth is missing the rest of them have to pick up the slack, and they are not rated for it, the system fails.

[working on it]

Thank you for your support? I relate all information, good and bad, about my "trial and error" approach to trailer building, opening up my private world and thoughts to all, because others may learn from my comments, successes, and failures (and the expert opinions that others give alongside). Others may think what they will about whether I'm heeding their advice, but I do what I can according to what's the best info available to me: advice, hints, tricks, or cautionary tales. I am no expert on welding, and probably never will be, but not because I don't listen to the experts, but because I don't have the time for the schooling nor the money for a big Miller mig (which I'll probably not get my money's worth from, in the rest of my life). I bought the two different welders, one that I wanted to use, on a later planned project (the Northern stick welder, which I belatedly discovered that my 220vac was inadequate to run), then the 125amp flux (Northern also, a purchase from a company I've used for years) to learn from in the meantime. My spring hanger project was unplanned, coming after I had already bought both machines. So, naturally, I am trying to learn welding as I go, with the welder(s) I just bought, and have to do my trailer repair at the same time, so there it is...I'll try/do both simultaneously. In a previous post, I said that I welded, ground down, and welded many more passes on my sub-assembly (which should not really require welding, since I'm bolting it together with Grade 8 hardware), just for my learning/supplementary strength of the part. I always intended to have my welded piece checked by a pro (I did), and the entire trailer repair finished by a pro, later, away from my garage. Since the trailer has to be a roller to get to the weld shop, I'm doing what I can to make it a roller. I just spent eight hours out in my open garage, with the wind blowing metal shavings around, just to get a leg up on my repair. As tired from work as I am, and now sick to boot, I am determined to get this done in time for my scheduled trip (and the days off I had to schedule many months ago). No time to learn first. However, I am an expert at bolt-ons, even the ones I fabricate myself. Many of my trucks, and even my racecar, have had modifications added that I fabricated, and never failed to do what I wanted to achieve. Daily? progress report: I completed my fitting of the side assemblies to the frame, bolted and torqued on the flat stock, bolted the Grade 8 hardware to the hangers, and inlet the frame to accept those bolt heads (curbside finished, streetside still needs the hanger bolts and inletting). Everything went together as I had planned, and everything is square. The pieces are so solid, I may decide to forego the cross-bracing I planned (probably not, I like overbuilding). I now will be able to order an axle, since my final spring center measurement is 48.75", and the hubface is still 61" (track is also 61", with zero offset trailer wheels). Photos to come later, just because all info is shared, good or bad.

[48Rob]

Hope you make your deadline...Our camping season is still months away...

Your diagram shows limited use of the adhesive to allow for stich welding, which is good, but when finished you might consider using more adhesive to prevent water and debris from getting between your angle and plates and frame, where it could rot out the frame unseen.

I'm not a pro welder and so can't comment on the job done, but your having a pro look over your welds is a good thing for safety, and had to make you feel good as well!

Rob

[working on it]

Actually, I think I'll skip the PL between new steel and old. Having been really up close and personal with the original frame, I see that the open tubing has not rusted anywhere, even though it sat for twenty years over marshy soil. I can't imagine that the 3/16" or 3/8" thick steel would rot away in my lifetime, especially given the Texas heat, and inside garage storage. I will seal the outer seams to cut down on water entry, though. I used 5 bolts to secure the angle, with 3 of them thru the flat stock. 3/8" Grade 8. Has to be stronger than before.

[Kody]

I have come into this conversation somewhat on the late side of it. However, the question was asked, "why would the holes be drilled into the tops of both front and rear hangers, if that was not their designed method of attachment? -- using bolts."
These holes are "Tooling" holes that enable the flat strip to be located in the tooling (the dies) by the forming punch that pushes the steel strip into the forming die to bend the strip to shape. The punch has a spigot in the center of its face that fits into the hole in the strip to correctly align the strip for the sides to be pressed up in the die. Without the alignment hole and the spigot, the "U" shape could not be produced. The hole is not meant to be used for a bolt or as a "filled in" area for welding. The hangers should be welded on by welding on the sides only where they sit on the chassis. A small tack weld can be placed across the front and rear of the hanger but this weld should be a small stitch type only. The hangers should never be fully welded across the main frame of the chassis. Welding across the frame can greatly reduce the integrity of the steel tube. I know that a lot of people do it, but it's not recommended at all.
Drilling through the top and bottom of the chassis rails is never a good idea. The top and bottom surfaces are the sections that give strength to the tube itself. They are either in compression or tension depending on the way they are stressed (or loaded) at any given moment. If you drill a 3/8 diameter hole (or bigger for clearance for the bolt) through the top and bottom plates being 1 1/2" wide, ie, the top and bottom surfaces, you have effectively reduced the strength of the tube by 25% minimum. Fitting a compression tube and flat washer will never achieve the original integrity of the tubing. You might "get away" with doing this for a long time but one day it will surely fail when you don't need it to do so. I would never drill holes through the top and bottom of a frame. It's just not worth the risk.

Kody

[MtnDon]

Thanks for that Kody.

That is the same thing happening that results in the larger holes in the formed steel construction brackets (like Simpson Strongtie) The large holes that appear to be for through bolting are the ones used to locate the pieces for bending. They are meant to be fastened with nails or approved screws, never bolts. I just never applied what I knew from one technology to the other.