Finally going a lil more public with Project FireBeetle!

[GreenViking]

Here is some burning man inspiration as well as festival culture inspiration for those of you not familiar with that culture, enjoy this video!:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1GL6NN1iKj_9QYTFdOdCzQB237ix5PQpIp29MwiDz1MQ/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=10000&slide=id.g61f2e6375_00

And thank you Brad and Tom on your input, always welcome and noted!

[GreenViking]

Imagine this applied to the form-finding of personal spaces and creating the shapes of the homes and offices we live and work in. Strap on a few tine 3d tracking devices and go about your day for 24hrs, mapping it in 3d provides a new reality for understanding for how long and in what positions we are occupying spaces.

http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/08/human-movement-converted-into-digital-sculptures/

[GreenViking]

So I am working on the frame design for a 5x10 base.
I want to incorporate a step that flows into the fender (easy roof access as well as place things and rest on)


And trying to figure out how to do the base frame to leave space for full interior width drop floor w/table and removable hitch and that has the wiring running back to 2 batteries placed close to axle...


Any good ideas on all that? This table is way to small to be functional for the office mode needs I am going for and the space seems like legs could easily get cramped... OKAY, this is really challenging because I need a base to start anything and that base will dictate everything else in soooo many ways.

I think I may be trying to fit a canned ham into a large teardrop... need to look at this through different eyes.
BASE PRIORITIES:
* BASE Prototype needs to be right around 1000# and no more the 150# at hitch
* Must expand to standing height in drop floor area to accommodate 6'6" person changing indoors.
* Carrying at-least x2 large batteries for min 9hr workstation computer use off grid + lights, flow fans 24hr offgrid.
* Comfortable, ergonomic interior table/sitting
* Stove, Sink,Yeti 125qt cooler (49lbs empty), Speakers (Bose Soundock Bluetooth, tiny w/Big sound)) are all portable so can be moved to where needed.

INCLUDING Latest space mockup below, suggestions and comments/considerations welcome! Color coded to give better idea on where things at.

SO this guy was able to fit it all into a small space! ....I think I can, I think I can!!! https://youtu.be/1DeXAVGs9S8

Attached below is my latest version showing some placement ideas for the double battery packs as well as dual propane placement close to the axle as that is where I want to keep the consistently heavy and persistent items.

Grid in image to scale
RED=Possible Batteries Locations and LP Gas Tanks (2)
BLUE=Yeti Large Ice Box + Food Storage
YELLOW=Frame

PLEASE COMMENT: I am really hitting a wall with the frame and a good way to incorporate a drop floor that remains sturdy and well insulated along with how best to run wiring from frond to back and up through walls.

[Gold5one]

Carrying at-least x2 large batteries for min 9hr workstation computer use off grid

I am installing Odyssey batteries- expensive, but they last a long time ( rated for 400 discharge cycles) and are more compact-- and shouldn't ever leak hydrogen gas--
Downsize to a Raspberry Pi 2 computer or a low power laptop- my laptop only needs 2.4 amps of power to recharge the battery. A workstation would be equivalent to a server, which is around 1000-1200 btu/hr, add in 400 btu for body heat and you have the recipe for an Indian sweat lodge- maybe you are going to have an A/C to cool things off.

[tony.latham]

So I am working on the frame design for a 5x10 base.
I want to incorporate a step that flows into the fender (easy roof access as well as place things and rest on)


And trying to figure out how to do the base frame to leave space for full interior width drop floor w/table and removable hitch and that has the wiring running back to 2 batteries placed close to axle...


Any good ideas on all that? This table is way to small to be functional for the office mode needs I am going for and the space seems like legs could easily get cramped... OKAY, this is really challenging because I need a base to start anything and that base will dictate everything else in soooo many ways.

I think I may be trying to fit a canned ham into a large teardrop... need to look at this through different eyes.
BASE PRIORITIES:
* BASE Prototype needs to be right around 1000# and no more the 150# at hitch
* Must expand to standing height in drop floor area to accommodate 6'6" person changing indoors.
* Carrying at-least x2 large batteries for min 9hr workstation computer use off grid + lights, flow fans 24hr offgrid.
* Comfortable, ergonomic interior table/sitting
* Stove, Sink,Yeti 125qt cooler (49lbs empty), Speakers (Bose Soundock Bluetooth, tiny w/Big sound)) are all portable so can be moved to where needed.

INCLUDING Latest space mockup below, suggestions and comments/considerations welcome! Color coded to give better idea on where things at.

SO this guy was able to fit it all into a small space! ....I think I can, I think I can!!! https://youtu.be/1DeXAVGs9S8

Attached below is my latest version showing some placement ideas for the double battery packs as well as dual propane placement close to the axle as that is where I want to keep the consistently heavy and persistent items.

Grid in image to scale
RED=Possible Batteries Locations and LP Gas Tanks (2)
BLUE=Yeti Large Ice Box + Food Storage
YELLOW=Frame

PLEASE COMMENT: I am really hitting a wall with the frame and a good way to incorporate a drop floor that remains sturdy and well insulated along with how best to run wiring from frond to back and up through walls.

I think those steps would get real old real quick while entering and exiting the cabin.

If you're having trouble figuring out a drop floor, you might pick up a copy of Steve Fredrick's Shop Manual. There's a ton of info in there.

T

[Socal Tom]

Make the frame out out rectangular tube, and run the wiring inside it. 1 inch width would be fine, and won't be much wider than the wall . You could also do C channel and run it within the width of the C. For the drop floor use the same 3 inch tall C channel going across. Put the flat part to the middle and attach to it. Don't worry about insulating it, or use carpet to insulate it. If you have to insulate, make a sandwich of plywood styrofoam and more plywood. Put wood supports every 8 or 10 inches in the foam layer to help support weight.
Tom

[Vedette]

Your frame design is just fine!
Running wires to the rear is an insignificant worry? (you can run them through the frame as suggested above...I did.)
Your draft drawing with the 6' 6" guy standing in the dropped floor??? Do the math! 8" ground clearance = 1" floor + 6' 6" man+ 3" headroom clearance + 1" roof +3" ceiling fan = 7" 10" overall height.
You are no longer building a teardrop! This thing is a 8 ft. tall "Standie"!!
Teardrop Camping isn't about standing up inside a trailer, or cooking inside, or running an office out of????
By definition it is a tiny trailer to sleep in, eat out. Designed for enjoying the great outdoors while "Camping".
Working on a computer, eating inside, watching movies etc. is not camping!
If you think it is, you should buy a Motorhome.
Maybe it is time to rethink your priorities and start welding and making sawdust and quit over thinking something as simple as a Teardrop Trailer.
Good Luck with your project whatever you decide.

[Sheddie]

I still think you need this one

[daveesl77]

I have to agree with the previous comment on this has long gone beyond a simple trailer. My 25', 6,000# travel trailer had 6'3" headroom. My 34' motorhome had 6'6". I feel I'm going overboard making my tiny travel trailer with a bit less than 5' of headroom (actually about 4'6" finished out interior). I'm a bit over 6' tall and never felt crowded in the first two.

At home I have 3, 8 core desktops that I use as a render farm when doing my documentaries. When on the road I have an old Toshiba dual core laptop and a really old HP netbook, both Linux systems. You don't need the power needed to run a monster if you leave the monster at home. We try to NOT be inside the camper, which is why we dropped down to just using a big tent.

The main problem you have with your design is the taller the unit the more windage it gets. More resistance means more power is needed to move it. The more stuff you add, the more it weighs, the bigger the tow vehicle needed. I'm building my first tiny trailer, but I've been around the block a few times on building stuff. Not saying what you are doing is wrong, as I am no expert, but I do think you need to determine what it is you are trying to accomplish.

dave

[S. Heisley]

Here are a few ideas that may help:

1a)The foot well area can be made bigger/longer by nearly the width of the trailer. You don't have to have as small a width as what you show in that picture. Just leave maybe four to 6 inches on the sides to run your wires, etc.

Please recognize that there is the "fall factor" where people may stumble in/out of your little trailer. When a door is smaller than a normal door, people seem to be "on notice" and that helps, though. Unless you indent the frame in the area of the well, a "Watch your step" sign may be necessary. Indenting the chassis frame the width of the foot well complicates things and may greatly increase the cost.

1b) Alternately, you could run the wires in a nice looking pipe along the edge of the wall....(I'm not fond of that one; but, it is possible.)

2) The foot well area can be made bigger/wider by moving one of the chassis's metal support braces over a bit so that, instead of 16 inches, you might have 18 or 20 inches...maybe more(?). Check with a trailer chassis builder to see how far apart you can safely move the support braces. Also, check to see what the legal requirements are. (Actually, it is probably time for you to run your ideas past a few professional chassis builders anyway. Just get a rough idea of what you want and tell them you want a price estimate for building the chassis and see what they suggest. Price estimates are usually free....)

3) The table can be made bigger in direct proportion to what you do in the above #1 & #2 But also, you can have pull-out/slide-out side tables that tuck under and out of the way when the table is in its down position, sort of like the old pull outs that used to be on the old-fashioned secretary's desk; but inset, so as to tuck into the foot well without interfering when not in use or not needed.

4) Consider, also, the possibility of small side shelves, hinged pull down side tables, collapsible drink holders, and side pockets for documents, etc, on the side walls.

Because your pictures show several dummy models per picture, to demonstrate the various possible positions a person may be in, it is hard to tell what your plan is for how many people you are trying to accommodate. Is it basically a work/sleep/office for one person or do you think you will be holding meetings with one to four people or.....? You might also want to consider adding on a side table on the outside of the teardrop or even a slide-out or fold-out counter that can be used as a table. There are a few ways to do some of that as well.

Only you know what you really want and what your intended end purposes are. No matter how much you explain and how many pictures you show, please recognize that there will be some people who may not understand some or any of it. Therefore, no matter how much we try to help, all we can do is suggest. The end result must be totally yours.

Best Wishes!

[Bluebunny]

Aw c'mon folks! The beauty of "building to suit" is the freedom to create a form of shelter for whatever we wish or need. I for one will build a ttt for use "on the road"; no camping or cooking, altho I love to walk in the woods and live like an animal for a few days (typically without lugging any shelter). If we want to build "inside the box" a mobile office or little recording studio, why not? I get it that GreenViking's ideas are not mainstream, and I like his train of thoughts. He is learning from our traditional practices, and we stand to learn from our folks "on the edge". Enjoy everyone!

[Bluebunny]

So I am working on the frame design for a 5x10 base.
I want to incorporate a step that flows into the fender (easy roof access as well as place things and rest on)
<snip>
And trying to figure out how to do the base frame to leave space for full interior width drop floor w/table and removable hitch and that has the wiring running back to 2 batteries placed close to axle...
<snip>
Any good ideas on all that? This table is way to small to be functional for the office mode needs I am going for and the space seems like legs could easily get cramped... OKAY, this is really challenging because I need a base to start anything and that base will dictate everything else in soooo many ways.
<snip>
I think I may be trying to fit a canned ham into a large teardrop... need to look at this through different eyes.
BASE PRIORITIES:
* BASE Prototype needs to be right around 1000# and no more the 150# at hitch
* Must expand to standing height in drop floor area to accommodate 6'6" person changing indoors.
* Carrying at-least x2 large batteries for min 9hr workstation computer use off grid + lights, flow fans 24hr offgrid.
* Comfortable, ergonomic interior table/sitting
* Stove, Sink,Yeti 125qt cooler (49lbs empty), Speakers (Bose Soundock Bluetooth, tiny w/Big sound)) are all portable so can be moved to where needed.

INCLUDING Latest space mockup below, suggestions and comments/considerations welcome! Color coded to give better idea on where things at.

SO this guy was able to fit it all into a small space! ....I think I can, I think I can!!! https://youtu.be/1DeXAVGs9S8

Attached below is my latest version showing some placement ideas for the double battery packs as well as dual propane placement close to the axle as that is where I want to keep the consistently heavy and persistent items.
<snip>
PLEASE COMMENT: I am really hitting a wall with the frame and a good way to incorporate a drop floor that remains sturdy and well insulated along with how best to run wiring from frond to back and up through walls.

GreenViking, Like your cool link to the magic picnic table, I'm confident that when you get your priorities weighed against the cost of inclusion, you will get it all to fit. My first pass at feedback is at weight...
<<BASE PRIORITIES: * BASE Prototype needs to be right around 1000# and no more the 150# at hitch>>
Getting creative with weight on any budget is a challenge with the energy requirement on your list; Two batteries and two bottles of propane will eat roughly 250 lbs from your trailer budget (correct comrades?) - that's 25% of your budget! Maybe carefully plan your budget needs; having had an electric boat and lead-acid battery chemistry for 13 years, I can surely tell you that 120 lbs of lead "aint much energy". 120 lbs of Lithium chemistry starts to get very re$pectable. 120 lbs of 2500 watt generator including six gallons of gasoline will earn you great disrespect from your peers, but hundreds of times the energy. Also consider anticipating your propane needs; instead of 45 lbs of propane weighing 70 lbs, may a little portable cylinder a day be enough? Oh wait...I'm drifting...

Just scratching at the surface, but just recommending that the weight problem get intertwined with your design...
1. How many sheets of ply or foam or aluminum or whatever to create the shell?
(I am budgeting for my project 40 lbs per 1/4" thick 4x8 panel of plywood - fully dressed, doored, windowed, and painted. I am guessing, but not wildly) - MEMBERS PLEASE give your experiences here??
---say your teardrop is the equivalent of 12 sheets of 1/4" ply; that is 500 lbs built using lightweight stich-and-glue "frameless" techniques.
2. 5x8 trailer = 260 lbs
3. energy requirement = 250 lbs?

...my point is you may be approaching your 1000 lb budget before including sandwiches to bring along.

...if high energy is truly on your priority list, fossil fuel cannot be beat, but it is nasty and noisy. Onan and Honda make some quiet generators that can run on propane...properly done and your friends may forgive you while they milk off a little energy for their own needs...

For the drop floor, perhaps let the floor truly drop to the ground (on feet) for maximum head room and least weight? Sides could be flexible fabric or some such concoction. Has anyone done this?
Kind Regards,
Bluebunny

[GreenViking]

Mark: Batteries noted (Odyssey batteries). For myself it IS a priority to have a full 3d Modeling workstation in this. I realize shoreline will be the reality most the time and that in Off-grid scenarios, my goal of at-least 9 hours at full load on the workstation and 24hrs for all other electrical gets me a solid day of work off-grid. Unfortunately the low-power laptops are not going to run the professional 3D and video editing side of things so those are out.
As far as the HEAT issue, yes, that is a HUGE deal that not being a thermal engineer with materials science background I am trying to create channels in the walls with constant low flow solar power fans to keep air moving (also very important from humidity side to keep dampness+mold down.

Tony Thanks, will have to chk it out. AS far as the drop floor goes, I would like for it to slide down to near ground level and retract... most I have seen do not do this without sacrificing weight as well as frame strength.

Tom I planed on running through the trailer frame, what I am interested in is how to exit the frame at the various points as well as details on how best to transition the electrical on moving parts like pop up hardroof and galley acrooss hinged areas. I have been looking at hatchback cars etc for ideas, but am wanting to see some detailed photos on how this has been handled in teardrops with some PICS. Thanks.

Brian One word: TARDIS! I never set out to remake a Teardrop, just using it as a baseline to make the FireBeetle, and the FireBeetle is an urban + road-trip solution that has different requirements then simply camping.
I understand from your comments that for you a teardrop is about simplicity and ease of build and getting out to nature and that is great!
FireBeetle needs to do more then that and be compatible in dense urban environments as well (side yard pull ups, security, soundproofing etc.)
I am here to stretch from what and how things have been done and understanding as best I can as I move forward incorporating others experiences while adding my own.
A genetic diversity of sorts. Adapting to different users with different requirements and having a hack-able base with the ability to upgrade and modify parts in a DIY fashion later. This is all part of what I am going for and that does make for a complexity that takes some figuring out.. again, why I am here. PS: Will be hitting the Laser cutter and 3D printer in upcoming weeks so "sawdust" coming soon!

Frank See TARDIS above.

Dave See below. Mobile Office with camp-ability is the goal. Modular FRP Foam body panel build is one method I am pursuing to keep walls/ceiling lighter and well insulated, waterproof and sound dampened.

Sharon What do you call yours? A standie or a foldy? Thanks for you input as always and yes, I get that some people do not get it... heck, probably most because without a common language it is hard to describe. Eventually I will make a youtube video that will express it better... I think that often the object and the experience get focused forsaking the "gray" between that makes life, life.

Bluebunny Thanks, getting abit hot in hear! Oh trust me, been wishing I had a BIM management add on to Rhino 5 that allows material AND weight properties to calculate as I go along, so until then...
Your feedback is much appreciated and liking the numbers, helpful! So the requirements for me with my current TV are what I mentioned, but in building this I am building it in a way that it can be easily upgraded depending on tow vehicle... that is the modeler aspect to it. I think an all in one Poster with call outs is in order so everyone is on near the same page as to what this is about. I realize that people just skimming one section of this post would only leave with a certain view that is incomplete and of course it changes with new information!

PEOPLE: Also looking at a pop up roof and that seems to be missed because my drawings are still in progress (l am tall and I like overhead space BUT in transit the FireBeetle will be more on scale with a teardrop... so if calling it a "standie" helps, I would say that it is more a hybrid like the Kampmaster but with different profile and solid FRP Foam shell semi-organic shaped panels.

[Bluebunny]

GreenViking, another source of high energy is the tow vehicle itself. Perhaps also is a good place to place some heavy batteries, and maybe look search term "vehicle mounted generators". Some great ones exist with good clean output.

[Vedette]

Sounds like a lot of time wasting to me???
You should check out TxDave. He has built three teardrops while you have been playing teardrop on your computer?????
Last on in only 37 days! At your current rate of progress it will take you that long to decide where the 3D printer will plug in?
No offence..... but you are in the wrong place here???
Good Luck with whatever it is you are looking for in life. As it may not be a teardrop!
Brian