The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

[KCStudly]

Yeah, we'll see about the canvas and epoxy test today, but I don't think I would ever go with multiple layers of canvas, or thicker canvas, before I would just opt for the glass; so canvas alone would weigh about half that.

[GPW]

Note: there was hardly an utterance around here about how Fiberglass was either bad or good , just it was a LOT more work ... Use it if you like .. IT CAN BE NICE AND SHINY !!!

[KCStudly]

No pics tonight because all of the samples look pretty much the same as before curing, except they are trimmed.

I can rule out the epoxy adhered wet on wet canvas. It doubled the added weight over glue applied canvas with epoxy top coat, despite the fact that it came out leaner on the outer surface; and, as expected, it did not lose the wrinkles.

I can say that I was reasonably impressed by the glued canvas with epoxy top coat. It was very comparable to the perceived durability of a single layer of 6oz glass and very similar in weight (not that weight is a big deciding factor).

The epoxy covered glass came out with just a little texture left in it, which would tone down even further with a heavier roller coat and after final paint. I do not intend to do any serious finishing bodywork and am not trying for an automotive finish. That would be a different project for me (i.e. a future automotive project). The cost isn’t really a pivotal deciding factor; we figure it would add about $400 to do 2 plies, and I might make back about $100 by selling my unused canvas and surplus glue. If only the glass was easier and more friendly to apply it would be the hands down choice.

I cleaned and scuffed the two remaining canvas samples and slapped a coat of Zinser 123 primer on them just to carry the testing out.

So I have it narrowed down to two options now; full blown fiberglass or hybrid PMF.

I know that the canvas doesn’t have the same strength as the glass, but I would think with preshrinking and gentle stretching at installation the problems with splitting might be avoided (maybe).

And the appeal of the relatively friendly application is a big deciding factor, vs the durability yet seemingly more complex method of the FG.

If you asked me right now I might say, “Look. Look up there. Right there in the subject line. It says it is a hybrid.”

Hybrid - something that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function; a mixture combining characteristics of two breeds.

Hopefully resulting in the best characteristics from both.

(Wiffle waffle with a tilt.)

[OP827]

.......
So I have it narrowed down to two options now; full blown fiberglass or hybrid PMF.
.............
(Wiffle waffle with a tilt.)

KC, by "hybrid PMF" do you mean you sample where you had canvas glued with TB2 and then top coated with epoxy?
If this is what you are referring to, it is a risky business having the PVA based glue under epoxy in the laminate. if any of TB2 gets to canvas surface in canvas, epoxy does not stick or impregnate through TB2, period. TB2 is PVA, just chemically modified for better water resistance. PVA is used as a separator for epoxy and polyester molds. If you like canvas and TB2, then I would stick to water based glue and paint finish all the way through, it should be more reliable vs. unpredictable long term outcome of such hybrid.

[KCStudly]

Hmm, I may have heard that somewhere before, and there were some white spots under the the epoxy that I assumed where areas of glue that had soaked thru the canvas.

Leaning back in favor of full blown FG/epoxy.

(Tilt)

I feel like I am watching the proverbial tennis crowd. Tilt left, tilt right, tilt left.

[GPW]

So far we've had one tiny case of canvas splitting in how many Foamies ? ... which could have been a defect in the canvas , an unnoticed cut , who knows ... My 2 seams pulling apart 1/16” ( mine are not splits ) are due to excess shrinking and actually exposed no foam ... so is a minor consideration . IMHO

Looks like you’ll not be happy unless you go with Glass and epoxy ... you’ve already come this far, so why not ? ... Glass and Epoxy will not shrink as it dries ... no worries ...

[KCStudly]

I know, GPW. The 'why not' is because it is a major commitment into the still (somewhat) unknown. It is also kind of a "point of no return" situation down a long and new-to-me path, so I hesitate a bit (... okay, let's be honest... a lot).

What I'm thinking is that the money and extra effort would be relatively cheap insurance toward protecting my already significant investment in money, time and effort; that the added durability of the glass would be reassuring for my intended use and storage conditions (including wet freeze/thaw cycles), and yet the thing that attracted me to the canvas in the first place still beckons.

I appreciate that you folks have the confidence that I could do it and get it to come out nice without screwing up, but I expect there will be "situations"... let's call them "opportunities"... that I will have to back track and rework, and I just hate the idea of spending days and days under a respirator and cover-up grinding away on FG. Maybe an unfounded fear, but let's be realistic, schtuff happens, and there are still techniques and situations (vertical and inverted surfaces) that I have not experienced yet. More likely than one big oops could be that there are a bunch of little things that 'nickel and dime' me, things like having to grind drippy edges and such. Even when wearing PPE there is still exposure just being in the space donning and doffing.

Thinking about all of the related issues. Things like masking; what do I need to do differently for epoxy that is above and beyond what I would do for glue? I wouldn't want epoxy to soak thru the rosin paper and stick it to my nicely finished floors; don't want to epoxy the hatch shut when I cover it. You know, little details.

You're correct, today I am leaning toward glass. Another tilt in that direction, last night Karl dug behind the drape wall curtain and pulled out a big bolt of 6oz cloth, handed it to me and said, "do whatever you want with it". (Must have been left over from some other project. ) Need to roll it out and see how much is really there, but it is a good lot of it.)

You're right, I'm very close to a decision.

Maybe you (all of you) are thinking I'm being a nanny; you're probably right. Get off the fence and act!

Final tilt, I'm going with the epoxy and glass.









Probably. (waffle waffle)

It's true what they say about having to "shoot the engineers".

[Atomic77]

Superior Materials=Superior Product.

[OP827]

Maybe more trial surfaces so you are more comfortable with your choice of technique?
IIRC it is called "confidence piece" where the detail is made as a trial to gain the confidence with the work result.
Good epoxy separators are polyethylene sheet or packing tape, wax paper. Paper and fabrics - not so good.

[KCStudly]

Thanks guys. I'm still thinking that I'll start with the tongue box. Even though I have a lot of hours into it already, I'm pretty confident that I can make the jump up to that size and complexity.

[GPW]

Foamies can be all things to all people , so your choice of covering is a personal one , much like choosing the color you’ll paint it ...with Epoxy paint ... ... No rules (except to have FUN) so it’s all Good eh !!!

[KCStudly]

I appreciate that GPW. I hope I haven't let you down.

I still owe a lot of credit to you for inspiring this build!

[ghcoe]

Superior Materials=Superior Product.

Did'nt they say that about the Titanic.....?

[KCStudly]

I get what Michael is saying.

The problem with the Titanic wasn't the materials that were used. As best that I can recall, it was like so many other massive failures; multiple contributing factors. There was a cutting edge design, a lack of adequate testing/revision, and management priorities that flew in the face of common sense safety.

They went bigger than ever before and did not correct the design when they found that the rudder was proportionately undersized; she handled like a pig. That and the over confident captain who was hell bent on making it to port on schedule and didn't slow down for the weather and conditions.

When they did get into trouble they were ill prepared to deal with the situation, with an inadequate number of life boats and a poor regime for deploying them (not filling boats to capacity).

I guess I've got a unique design, one might say cutting edge (probably not), but no one can accuse me of rushing things. I'd like to think that the design is merely a revision of prior successful designs, and that I am researching and testing things adequately when I get a little outside of my "comfort zone".

I hope to be prepared for my journey with adequate support equipment, including recovery gear and damage control kit; and intend to stay well within the intended safe operating envelop (you know, barreling down the highway at excessive speeds and bouncing down a mountain road while slowly soaking in every ounce of the glorious scenery. ), as verified by pre-commissioning testing (you know, bopping around a few backwoods country lanes and checking to see if anything falls off ).

Ghcoe, I realize that you probably didn't mean anything negative by that comment, just implying that it takes more than good materials to get a good result. I get that, too. It starts with the design, takes the correct application and use of compatible materials, and is also very dependent on operating within the intended design parameters.

My build may not be conventional, and it may use unconventional building materials and techniques compared to more traditional TD's, but she's no Galloping Gurdy ( ), and hopefully will fair much better than the Titanic on her maiden voyage.

Maybe it should be, "Superior Design, Materials and Execution = Superior Product".

S'all good.

[OP827]

I thought that a good workmanship is also needed for superior product.