The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

[Atomic77]

Nice work KC. How do you like that 403? We use a lot of West, but that's one thing I'm not crazy about. We use Aerosil, which is a pyrogenic silica and mixes much finer than 403. I like your pastry bag technique. Pretty slick. This past race season we started using Six 10 for similar purposes and really like the simplicity of it. Keep up the good work man. You're getting there and apparently the only one of us getting anything done around here!

[KCStudly]

Frankly, I don't like it much. If I mix it wet enough to flow well it seems to sag. When I mix it thick enough to not sag, it seems to roll out and clump up under the squeegee; doesn't spread well. I like the 410 better, but it is not intended for structural bonding, just fairing so I have avoided using it wherever I think I might laminate over again.

I just haven't taken the time to look for something better that is still compatible, and besides, it has been paid for and the container is still 3/4 full. I'll go look at that six10 stuff now. Must be a 2 part that mixes in the spout?

Most of my tasks have been small so far, so if you have to use the whole tube at once, that won't work for me for most jobs.

[KCStudly]

This answered the questions I had about the six10.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/six10-frequently-asked-questions/

It looks like it would be worth a try if it is reasonably priced and I hadn't already spent the money. I suspect that it is less cost effective, but it sounds like it might be optimized for spreading, too.

[Atomic77]

Frankly, I don't like it much. If I mix it wet enough to flow well it seems to sag. When I mix it thick enough to not sag, it seems to roll out and clump up under the squeegee; doesn't spread well. I like the 410 better, but it is not intended for structural bonding, just fairing so I have avoided using it wherever I think I might laminate over again.

I just haven't taken the time to look for something better that is still compatible, and besides, it has been paid for and the container is still 3/4 full. I'll go look at that six10 stuff now. Must be a 2 part that mixes in the spout?

Most of my tasks have been small so far, so if you have to use the whole tube at once, that won't work for me for most jobs.

It mixes it thick right in the tube. Perfect every time. And no, you just clean the applicator tip with acetone and you've got multiple uses. We also get a bag of tips if we use the same tube over and over a lot. Yeah I really like the Aerosil for what you're doing there because I can spread it on like butter. With the 403 I would have to put plastic over it and smooth it down then pull it off after it kicks.

[KCStudly]

The filler work I did yesterday was just a tad soft still when I arrived today, which I attributed to the cold overnight temperatures (high of 48), but I figure it will continue to cure solid eventually. After pulling the screw out of the hinge hole repair… with the wax it came right out… and doing some sanding, it was time to lay up the hinge area. This would also be a test of my ability to lay dry on dry on a slanted surface.

I had previously cut 60 inch long strips at 5 and 4 inches wide so that I could stagger the plies, hopefully allowing me to step lap the main lay up later. The plan was to hang the strips off of the front of the spar some to allow a clean trim. In hindsight I should have put sharpie lines on the foam to help guide placement of the cloth.

Anyway, I tried tabs of blue tape first to keep the cloth strips from sliding off of the hatch, but it didn’t stay attached to the foam well at all.

Then I spent some time cutting bamboo skewers down and sharpening them into hardy toothpick size. I had plenty more skewers, but the newer package was fatter in diameter and I didn’t want the extra length getting in the way anyhow.

The skewers worked pretty well to hold the cloth in place. Here you can see how I staggered the plies and alternated the strips with a short piece added on each end to make up the difference in length between the 60 inch cloth and the 64 inch wide hatch, plus wrapping the sides. You can also see how I pressed the plastic wrapped cedar 4x4’s back into service to help prop the hatch up into a slightly flatter position.




After wetting it out and pulling the skewers out, I propped the hatch up even further as a hedge against having the whole layup slide off. Probably wouldn’t happen, but the top layer was still able to squirm around a little under the squeegee.


The dry on dry technique is a lot less controlled than the PMPP; lots of stray stringy bits to contend with. I did end up lifting the front edge of the cloth and brushed some wet along the oak in a few places that didn't wet out readily at first, but it looked pretty good to me when I walked away from it.


Here’s another shot from the curb side.


And one from the front underside.


Another looking down from the street side. I suppose I could have trimmed some more of the excess off while still wet since not doing so can let a bubble form when the glass tries to hang down and bends over the edge, but I find that gets messy and I tend to lift the cloth in doing so. I prefer to leave less hanging over to start, even though you run the risk of pulling threads out from the edge during the wet out. The staggered plies aren’t very straight along the back (right in pic). If I had this to do over I think I would do it as two single ply PMPP’s. Another option would be to make a staggered PMPP by wetting out one ply over plastic; laminating with a top plastic; trimming it straight; peeling one sheet of plastic; laying it staggered over the second ply as its being wet out on plastic; peeling the top plastic; laying a larger top plastic over; trimming the edge of the larger ply; peeling the plastic off of the larger ply; and then laying that side down on the part.


A little closer up and you can see some loose strands and the lack of straightness. I spent some time at the end trimming loose strands that had pulled up onto the foam and trying to get the short fibers along the edge to lie down smoothly. I was wishing that I had mail ordered peel ply, and now I realize what Atomic was saying; I should have had a strip of plastic ready and laid that over the stagger to fair it down as it cures.


I think I dragged enough wet up onto the foam that it will be armored enough and I can sand any barbs without gouging into the foam.

Now I’m second guessing that not quite cured filler. I should inspect what’s left in the resin and hardener cans to make sure it hasn’t started to crystallize. That can happen with temperature changes and can upset the chemical balance of the cure. Not too worried. Probably just temperature.

[Wobbly Wheels]

Hey KC, it's coming along great !
I don't have too much time to spend on here at the moment, but yours is one of the builds I try to keep tabs on.
I remember your question mark about using glass at the beginning...now you wonder what the concern was all about !

As to the fillers - I use cabosil (another pyro fiber) but if I need a hybrid of sandable and adhesive, I've used talc, carpenter's chalk, or microballoons. It helps to fill in the 'chunkiness' of the microfibers and is way better at adjusting the viscosity of your mix. Like you pointed out, microfibers alone don't give you much variability in viscosity but sanding fillers do.

I'm still catching up so forgive if if you've tried it and decided against this for securing the cloth...
If you cut some strips of your rosin paper, you can drive staples through it, through the glass and into the foam. When I used skewers, it was in places where I'd be able to get in there and fill the holes before glassing. The B&D tackers are great because the trigger is reversed, making it easier to squeeze when held off to avoid divots in the foam. During the layup, you can pull on the paper tab with a gloved had and the staple comes right out. It should also work with your 'PMPP' process, giving you the third hand that you always seem to need.

It looks like you've got the radii and the edges dialed in just right - I always find those are the spots I need to watch.

[KCStudly]

WW, Thanks for checking in, and thanks for the tips and advice. I wonder if you might get away from having to do a dedicated filler pass for the holes with the staple thing, or even just smaller tooth picks; maybe.

I remember your question mark about using glass at the beginning...now you wonder what the concern was all about !

Well it isn’t all roses and champagne, but it isn’t all doom and gloom, either. I have intentionally not complained too much because I want to avoid the “I told you so’s”, and on the same token it doesn’t seem very nice to overstate the gory details, either. The truth is somewhere in between, and depending on which side you land on, your beliefs are confirmed.

Since you mentioned it, I will elaborate. The sanding dust is the biggest, constant issue. On the other hand I have become accustom to donning my respirator pretty much as soon as I enter the build area, and try not to take it off until just as I am leaving. There is a fine coating of glistening dust on just about everything within the tent and it stirs up easily. The floor standing fan does not exchange enough air to pull the floating ‘lighter than air’ particles out, so is not worth the heat loss, and just entering the space stirs stuff up. At some point I should do a very thorough vacuuming and hoe thru every last thing, all of the shelves and tools and supplies and everything, but for now it is keep working and wear the respirator religiously.

Itchy dust. I am grateful for the cool weather otherwise I would roast wearing long sleeves and Tyvek gauntlets/arm guards. I have found that my hands are tuff enough not to be susceptible to the dust, and only have to wear rubber gloves when handling wet; the gloves aren’t very durable for sanding anyway. It is an eye irritant, but I wear safety style glasses with side shields so that is less of an issue. I always try to position myself above, so most of the heavy stuff falls. When unavoidable, the goggles come out, but quickly fog up requiring frequent work stoppages to cool down.

Pet precaution. One day a couple of hours after I got home, one of our cats had just about rubbed his eyebrow raw. All I can figure is that I must have reached down and patted him on the head before washing sanding dust off. He quickly recovered, but pets are much more susceptible to poisoning and bad reactions to exposures outside of their normal. I am much more careful to avoid contact with him until I have wiped the dust from my shoes, stowed them out of reach in the hall closet, and washed up thoroughly.

Skin reactions. At one point, before I started changing into a long sleeve shirt, I must have pulled up the Tyvek sleeve with a little wet epoxy on my gloved hand. When I disrobed after the layup I had about a quarter sized area of arm hair that was just barely matted with gummy epoxy. The temptation to clean it off with acetone was great, but based on precautions that this is the worst thing you can do, I resisted. Instead I worked my way home and scrubbed, and scrubbed with soap and water until my arm was pink from the abrasion and didn’t feel gooey anymore. It itched and burned some. Within a day I had about a dozen nasty, itchy, pimple like blisters, which erupted and oozed and later became scabbed. Sorry for the gory details, but this is the reality. I will survive, and have adapted my techniques and PPE (long sleeve T-shirt plus Tyvek sleeves, and greater care to wipe off gloves before touching anything that is not part of a layup.

Yesterday when I was doing the hatch hinge area I had some drips and strings hanging off of the lower edge and had laid cardboard down to catch the drips. At some point I knelt down to cut some of the more egregious strands, and may have gotten a whiff of wet on my scalp; or I touched the mixing cup after having removed my gloves to take pictures, and there was a little hint of tacky epoxy that I could just feel and smell on my fingers, and I may have touched my head afterwards (another possibility was that it was something that I was exposed to at work). Later when I got home I started getting a slight burning sensation and itchiness, so I dunked my head and scrubbed with soap and water. No blisters so far, so maybe a near miss.

Last one. “Green” fiberglass splinters. After doing a layup I seldom ever wait around for the ‘flexible yet firm trim stage’ of the cure, so there are almost always hard spiky strands of glass threads poking off of the edges of my parts after the cure. These can be quite hazardous to be around until they have been trimmed and the edges are sanded. Despite Karl warning me by regaling me with the tale of his nasty infected FG sliver, and how the doctor had a very hard time finding it to dig it out, I managed to stab myself in the shoulder with a spiky bit way back when I did the sealing lip on the underside of the hatch edge. It got "angry" (I don’t think the amine helps any). My doctor’s office defaults to an answering machine for making appointments and in the phone tag reply they implied that there is nothing they can do for the “microscopic” fibers. Despite my suggestion that I probably have a composite sliver, instead of making an appointment they recommended hot compresses. It is still a very angry open wound about 1/4 inch in diameter, despite several rounds of hot compresses and twice daily redressing. I will force myself upon their receptionist after the holiday, as it is not healing.

So am I over complaining, or proving that epoxy is the evil spawn of the devil? There is a big "upside" to having a fiberglass coated camper, but that is a topic for another time.

I’m still happy with my decision, but I can also still appreciate the benefits of water and cotton based options.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. I knew all about these issues when I made my choice and do not regret it.

[KCStudly]

Let’s get back to the build proper.

I am very pleased with how the hatch hinge area layup went after having cleaned it up and trimmed it back. I didn’t find any blisters or lack of adhesion, and it all cleaned up very nicely. I’ll get to the details and pics in a second, but first let’s talk about something a bit more nebulous.

There are some very big mistakes that you can make in building a small camper if you don’t do a good job researching and learning from the collective experience of this forum. There are plenty more choices where there is no one correct way to do a thing, and you will probably end up okay regardless of your decisions. There will always be advice that you are not smart enough, or learned enough to choose to follow. And then there are things that you figure might be a good idea, but don’t get around to trying for a while, perhaps a long while; and if you had tried you might have changed course sooner. “If I knew what I know now when I was younger…”.

What am I talking about? Do you remember back when Karl, and I am sure others here, suggested that it might be a good idea to give the foam a preemptive hard coating of epoxy? Today I found out that that would have probably been a really good way to go. (I’ll get to it.)

First, it had gotten warmer today (above 50) and when I checked the nugget of thickened epoxy that was left over in the plastic piping bag it was hard as a rock; so as I suspected, the slow cure was temperature related.


The hatch hinge spar area layup had kicked off fine, too.

After trimming the edge close with the serrated knife; scraping the edge down close with the small paint scrapper (which worked very well and a lot faster than the 100 grit on the small block); sanding the edge flush; knocking down the nubbies at the staggered lap (so that the greenie pad wouldn’t snag on it); and washing the amine off with the greenie, things were shaping up very nicely. Street side first.



A long shot of the leading edge.


The little flame shaped outline is where I sanded the not so flat butt joint bump between cloth strips fair.


Curb side.



At first I just sanded the lap edges enough to remove any snags. You can also see the darker gray areas above the edge of the cloth where I made sure to spread any excess epoxy off and as thin as I could to avoid runs and blobs.


Then I decided to test my theory about the skim coat of epoxy armoring the foam against sanding damage and used the small block to hand sand the staggered edges much closer to fair. It was easy with nice fresh paper and very light pressure. The best part was that I never once caught an edge or chunked out any of the foam! No accidental fingernail gouges, no undercutting, and no dents or dings to have to fix.


I could have taken this even further, or worked it with some fairing mix, but it makes more sense to me to do the main hatch layup before going to that stage. If I thought I could do a better seam it might make more sense to fair it better, but I’m not that good yet. So that was my ‘ah ha’ moment. If I had listened to that advice earlier, or if I had decided to do epoxy and glass earlier, I might not have chased so many dings and dents and handling issues. I might not have done all of that spackle work, and I might have been further along here now. Maybe.

One last task for tonight. I went down the row and drilled thru to the existing hinge screw holes. Here you can see two of the hatch rib screws buried under filler under the glass on the left; a drilled hinge screw hole adjacent to that; and another hinge screw hole to be drilled thru over on the right. No trouble seeing them or finding center.


Okay, this is probably going to be the end of progress until after X-mas. Places to go and things to do.

[GPW]

Merry Christmas KC !!!

[OP827]

That glassing work of yours looks really good KC! Merry Christmas!

[KCStudly]

Happy holidays GPW.
Happy holidays OP.
Happy holidays to all!!!

Thank you OP. This was my first layup where I thought everything was good during the layup (except for the not so straight and consistent staggered edge) and it came out super with no blisters or lifts. I've had that sense at the end of a layup before, but I usually find something after the cure that either needs to be repaired... or needs to be overlooked. This time all was perfect!

I calculated about 2.25 oz of resin, and mixed 3, thinking that some would soak in. I ended up mixing another one pump batch, 0.75oz, to get it all saturated, but I figure some of the extra got dragged onto the foam, and some came away with the extra globs of strands. Better to have good adhesion and be a little rich, than it is to starve it.

We had a great X-mas eve dinner at mom and Bill's last night: standing rib roast with a crusty salt & pepper herb rub; Brussel sprout halves and sliced parsnips tossed in a bit of olive oil and roasted, then toasted pecans tossed in at the last minute; pearl onions blanched to remove skins, roasted with a touch of maple syrup until caramelized then tossed at the last minute with whole almonds that had been blanched to remove the skins and toasted (the onions made their own au jus that was fabulous); horseradish sauce; Graber olives; minty M&M’s in individual depression glass candy dishes doubled as table decorations and a palate cleanser; and for dessert, mom’s apple pie ala mode with a couple of slices of the seriously sharp cheddar.

X-mas morning, I just finished getting my roast in the oven... smells delicious already with a slathering rub of fresh herbs, horseradish, garlic, minced shallots, S&P and olive oil. Also on the menu are Yvette's twice baked potatoes; the seriously sharp mac and cheese (don't laugh, it is from scratch and one of our favorite comfort foods), blanched green beans tossed with almond slices that have been sautéed in butter and drizzled with that bourbon maple syrup; horseradish sauce made with sour cream, yogurt, a little coarse Dijon mustard and ground black pepper; Graber olives and that super simple cranberry relish; and my brother in law, Rene, will bring a minced pork pie (another family tradition). We will be 9 for dinner.

Yvette made her usual confections: oatmeal raisin cookies with butterscotch chips; spritz cookies; peanut butter balls; rum balls; and chocolate fudge; and mom will bring a pecan pie (or 2).

I hope all of my TnTTT friends have a relaxing and joyous day!

[Sheddie]

Hi KC,
Merry Christmas to you and your family. Sounds like you will be having another fabulous meal. Don't forget to post lots of so that we can all drool on the screen with jealousy
We had a relaxing day here in NZ with Dales family and too much food. Boxing day here now, about to have breakfast.

[Atomic77]

Merry Christmas KC!

[dales133]

Merry Christmas bud have a great day

[KCStudly]

Thank you all and seasons greetings right back at you!

I’m sorry, but I was way too busy on x-mas day to take pictures of our feast, but did have the presence of mind to snap some shots of mom’s spread on x-mas eve. Since you asked, Sheddie, I will burn some more of Big Mike’s bandwidth and share the glorious meal with all of you.

While sitting around the keeping room enjoying an appetizer (prosciutto wrapped around mozzarella sticks, and a garlic jelly served with pretzel sticks) I mentioned a recent purchase I had made. I friend of mine was looking to pawn an old E.M. Reilly side by side. Turns out it was a side hammer, pin fire bottom lever lock from somewhere in the 1861 - 1865 time frame with lots of engraving and embellishment; although in somewhat rough shape, being 150 yrs old, it was worth his asking price even if it is just a wall hanger.

Anyway, this reminded Bill that he had an old musket, which I promptly asked to see. It had a German name stamped on the top of the barrel and a couple of proof marks on the trigger guard. Cap ignition and ball black powder, with brass receiver and butt cap. On a guess I would say it was at least 58 cal, maybe even 69. I thought it made a nice old New England picture leaning against the granite fireplace.



Mom always sets a festive table with seasonal decorations; x-mas colored placemats and a quilted center piece.


Green depression era glass candy dishes, her cherished Curtis family crystal goblets, and more quilt work on the sideboard under the apple pie.


Dinner is served! I forgot to mention the garlic popovers. They were yummy, with a dozen minced garlic cloves populating eleven popovers, and cooked in a Griswold 10 (948) cast iron muffin pan.


Herb crusted standing rib roast. Mom was thrifty, combining coupons and sale prices to get under $6/lb (Go mom!).


Roasted Brussel sprouts, parsnips and toasted pecans.


Caramelized pearl onions and toasted blanched almonds.


Garlic popovers.


Graber olives.


Add a dab of horseradish sauce for a fabulous plate full of food!


Here’s that iron muffin pan (right before I cleaned it up).


A better shot at that apple pie and mom’s winter quilt wall hanger.


Mom pulled rank this year, foregoing the traditional pumpkin and pecan pies, making a very good choice with the apple pie, served ala mode with vanilla ice cream and a couple of slices of Seriously Sharp cheddar cheese.


Now I’m off to the build.