The RV Death Spiral

[aggie79]

There are (were) a few good independent travel trailers. I have been looking at CampLite from LivinLite for several years as a move-up possibility from our teardrop. CampLite used to be an all aluminum trailer. The frame, sidewall, roof, and floor structures were welded. Exterior roof and sidewall skins were aluminum. Interior cabinet framing was aluminum with aluminum skins. The interior wall finish was composite. The look was not appealing to everyone but the trailers were well built and worth the premium price.

About 2 years ago LivinLite was purchased by one of the big RV manufacturers. The factory was relocated and "improvements" started happening. First to go were the aluminum cabinetry for "wood" cabinetry. Next to go was the aluminum roof skin that was replaced by a membrane roof. Rumored to be happening next are replacements for the aluminum floor and aluminum frame.

Needless to say, the "improvements" have caused us to pass on the travel trailer line.


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[capnTelescope]

Well! This thread is certainly an eye opener. Especially the "Death Spiral" series. No lemon laws apply. Sounds even worse than GPW's sad songs. I used to take those with a grain of salt, but no more.

Saw one good tip: if you must have a big RV, buy used after a careful inspection. Who wants to lug one of those behemoths around, anyway?

[GPW]

Brad, everybody thought I was just being an old Grouch ( I can accept that ) ... But some of these stories are far worse than what happened to me ... I’m only out about $12 Large overall... That’s a LOT of money to lose , but nothing compared to some people ...
My wife’s Uncle in New Jersey bought a "big one" (coach) and never managed to finish a trip unless something major broke down , and they had to stay over waiting for parts .... It got to be a family joke ... “ Uncle Donald broke down on the road again” ... Once they even had to change the motor on route ( the original motor had < 5k miles on it ) .... that was a very expensive proposition , and her Uncle got so PO’d he sold the coach at a big loss and never looked at any RV again ...


My big question always was .... How can they get away with this, and for so long ... ??? A Lemon Law would instantly put them out of business, so somebody has a “Fix” in with the politicians ... Those 2 corporations must pay a lot of bribes to keep the wolves from the door ... Product liability laws non existent for the RV industry and strict for everybody else...something is wrong with that picture ... It’s always the problem when the Love of Money stands in the way of conscience ...


Now you can see how Foamie trailers developed out of total Frustration (those sad songs ) ... Just give me a trailer that WORKS like it’s Supposed to ....

[Padilen]

My family has always had an RV. I'm 55 my mother still has one. I also have scrapped numerous travel trailers and have seen how they have changed. We also had a mobile home as a vacation house. I owned and lived in a mobile home for to many years. I saw the difference in quality in those mobiles too, 15 years apart. I however do not "blame" just the manufactures. Consumers are also at fault. Many have no knowledge about how things are put together or how they work. They want easy financing showy looking and all the comforts of their home but on wheels. No maintenance either! Nor can they "remember" to get it serviced at dealer. ( check out how many never get their automobiles recalls done). How many here use a cheaper harbor freight trailer frame over a more expensive or custom made frame. The more expensive trailer frames or custom builders sell less so they start dropping quality to compete with the cheaper products.
Sales people lie- oh noes ! It's of course, want to hear lies go to "buy "a new mobile home. They'll tell you they're built better than on site stick built: because the go down the road at 55 and are built in a factory with quality control!
I know a young welder/fabricator, he wants to start his own trailer business. I cautioned him his idea has been tried, and failed. We as consumers complain about quality yet we won't pay extra for it. I was accused of trying to crush his dream. Which I wasn't trying to do. I actually wish we had more younger people like him and his dream would come true. I was just explaining that a 900 dollar trailer @TSC would be 1/2 the cost of one custom trailer. TSC can offer financing and has product on hand.
How can he compete with that? He said because his would be better built and welded. I agree with that but I too can't afford to pay double and cash when I can "fill the need" for 1/2 price and financed.
We as consumers need to remember when pointing a finger 3 are point back at us.

[GPW]

Thing is , should the consumers be responsible for knowing every stick that goes in their trailer ... Or should they be able to buy a RELIABLE product trusting the maker to some degree ? Do you know every part on your car , every 2X4 in your Home ??? ... Do you trust that person who makes your burger at the Burger King ?? You Eat it without question huh ??? ... Point is , where do you draw the line between Truth and FRAUD ???

The new RV’s “ Are Not your Grandpa’s RV” ... TRUE !!! ... Manufacturers actually tried to make a good trailer in the old days ... and they even had Lemon Laws then ...

[les45]

I have to chime in on this one. I've found recently that this problem is nothing new. I'm working on a pop-up project with a 27 year old Jayco. I had always heard that Jayco was a decent brand but I've found that they were just as bad then as today's builders. When I stripped my Jayco down to bare bones, I found crappy wood that looked like it came from the scrap heap. A piece of oak in one stud and some cheap, broken pine in the next. Everything was held in place with staples and many missed the mark or were only half driven. When I pulled up the old vinyl floor there was sawdust from all the holes drilled in the deck embedded in the glue. The Dexter torsion axle was installed in such a way that you couldn't remove it without sawing two of the bolts. Lots of water leaks and stained wood but I was lucky and only had to re-build one wall at the rear. My neighbor just bought a small used but fairly new Fun Finder for $6,000. It looked great on the outside and the inside, but when he took it to the local RV guy to get it checked out, they said it needed $6,000 in repairs due to leaking seams. He sold it the next day at a $2,500 loss. The RV business is geared toward the first time buyer who is totally ignorant of this problem or the high end folks who don't mind paying for the expensive fixes.

[Padilen]

Since I was my own general contractor and helped build my house I do pretty much know all of the wood. I also designed it. But I also know every little thing that I should have, would have, could have, done or undone. But my line for fraud may be higher or lower than another's. Because many never complain about their RV's or mobiles the industry keeps chugging on. The claim that mobiles go down the road and have QC is true. And that some onsite stick built are junk is true.

27 years is after the decline started I'd guess mid 70's it was noticeable.

[Shadow Catcher]

One of the aspects to this is that folks do not seem to know how to fix things. When I was going through middle and high school I took "shop" and learned the basics of electricity and taking care of a car. In my job I was often around professional plumbers and electrician and watched and talked with them. When we got our not completed tear I was able to finish the work.
As i have said the legal system in Indiana has been stacked for the RV manufacturers and you have to sue in the state of origin in most cases. I also do not think most folk are aware lemon laws apply to RV's, and one of the things big delays in warranty repairs do is get you past the warranty.

[lrrowe]

One of the aspects to this is that folks do not seem to know how to fix things. When I was going through middle and high school I took "shop" and learned the basics of electricity and taking care of a car. In my job I was often around professional plumbers and electrician and watched and talked with them. When we got our not completed tear I was able to finish the work.
As i have said the legal system in Indiana has been stacked for the RV manufacturers and you have to sue in the state of origin in most cases. I also do not think most folk are aware lemon laws apply to RV's, and one of the things big delays in warranty repairs do is get you past the warranty.

Shawdow Catcher, did you mean "lemon laws "DO NOT" apply......?

Also I learned all my handyman skills by watching, asking and doing. You Tube is a blessing these days. Of course my Engineering degree did not hurt.
But I am still a jack of all trades and an expert in none. Thus, my many questions here.

[Shadow Catcher]

Sorry if I was not clear, lemon laws do apply as well as the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (“The Act”) is a Federal law that protects buyers of virtually any goods sold in the US which came with an express written warranty.

[lrrowe]

Thanks....I did misunderstand it.

[GPW]

Lemon Laws may be tough to prove , with the trailer manufacturer blaming YOU for every problem... They’ve obviously had much practice at that ... It would really take something like a class action lawsuit to bring them down ... Lots of documentation necessary , but probably they can afford the Best Lawyers ... so it wouldn’t be easy to prove them wrong ... !!!
Consider this .... These days when you can BUY Influence ( bribes/lobbying ) , again’t a large corporation , an normal individual doesn’t really have a chance ...

“ they have us by the base of our snarglies “ _ Beldar Conehead

[Shadow Catcher]

GPW the hopeful part is that lemon laws are state laws so do not have to take place in Indiana where the deck is absolutely stacked against you. I am becoming familiar with the Moss Magnuson act because of a problem I am having with Subaru. They are because I have a class 3 hitch and transmission cooler denying coverage under an extended warranty I purchased. The torque converter failed on a 13 month old replacement transmission. Even though it says nothing in the owners manual about requiring a class 1 hitch. Since I have a 3.6L that is rated for 3,000# I am going to fight it.

[rebapuck]

The Death Spiral applies to pretty much everything we buy. I blame the Internet for a lot of it. It's so easy to compare prices and buy the cheapest one. Americans have demanded the cheapest and now receive the cheapest.

[lrrowe]

The Death Spiral applies to pretty much everything we buy. I blame the Internet for a lot of it. It's so easy to compare prices and buy the cheapest one. Americans have demanded the cheapest and now receive the cheapest.

Maybe I am different, but I find the internet lets me search out the "better" products. Yes I search by price but then I temper the buy decision with as many product reviews as I can find. Doesn't this mean the internet gives me the advantage to find the best price coupled with acceptable quality based on consumer reviews. (Yes, I know I have to watch them carefully so I typically look for the negative reviews and see what they are about)