HALLMARK 6X12 CONVERSION

[Tommy B]

McDAve,

All those questions about stuff I don't know about hurt my brain.

I got a bad feeling about this AC unit.
Its in Dons hands now to at least eliminate a few things.

Plenty of pics and info to follow tomorrow afternoon.

Will sort this out till it works or is replaced.

Thanks.

[hankaye]

Tommy B. Howdy;

Have to apologize for my statement <" Perhaps the folks that installed yours grabbed the A/C from the wrong shelf???">
There wouldn't be a wrong shelf... by that I mean that all of the A/Cs are the (basically), same just some, like yours
would be an add on for a 50 amp. RV or as a solo for something on the smaller side where the heat and a/c together in
a single unit would be beneficial for saving space and weight. Again, my apology.

So, what else can cause your problem other then fixating on the A/C. Don't want any thing jumping up and down waving
it arms a shouting at ya. Have you the proper size wire run to the unit? No shorts in the wire 's route? The correct sized
circuit breaker in the panel? Anything else for the troubleshooting list?

hank

[flboy]

Hank, I'll be checking the voltage at the compressor during startup to make sure the voltage isn't being dropped on the line , breaker, or switch relay (the basics). Aside from a low voltage input, or the starter circuitry itself, the only other issues are with the compressor itself or possibly an overcharge all of which I do not have equipment/tools to address ( I wish I had a good set of manifolds). Tommy is describing a hard start issue with the humming and blowing breakers. I don't really have the means to check much else, so if the cheap booster cap doesn't help (or a starter/run cap which I keep in my tool box), and the voltage to the compressor is good, then I'll call it a day. It sounds like this AC has been doing this since day one and cools when it does start if it doesn't happen to blow breakers, so it could very well be wiring to the motor or etc. dropping some voltage.. I can at least troubleshoot that stuff. The way I see it, the Booster caps should be on some of these AC's from Day one. Two guys I know who own AC shops tell me the Booster caps will extend the life of a weak compressor motor in any case given the hard starts are running more current through the wingdings than it can handle over time. Can't hurt to have it and they are cheapo. I have learned that some of the new RV AC's now come with them as normal equipment and are advertised as lower current start up (for the generators). It will help with the start ups on the generator for sure even if we find a wiring issue to correct the problem. I have installed on an AC before where the Generator would fault and the AC would drop off, but the booster cap was just enough to not fault. Probably don't matter for shore power all else being the same.

[McDave]

Hank, I'll be checking the voltage at the compressor during startup to make sure the voltage isn't being dropped on the line , breaker, or switch relay (the basics). Aside from a low voltage input, or the starter circuitry itself, the only other issues are with the compressor itself or possibly an overcharge all of which I do not have equipment/tools to address ( I wish I had a good set of manifolds). Tommy is describing a hard start issue with the humming and blowing breakers. I don't really have the means to check much else, so if the cheap booster cap doesn't help (or a starter/run cap which I keep in my tool box), and the voltage to the compressor is good, then I'll call it a day. It sounds like this AC has been doing this since day one and cools when it does start if it doesn't happen to blow breakers, so it could very well be wiring to the motor or etc. dropping some voltage.. I can at least troubleshoot that stuff. The way I see it, the Booster caps should be on some of these AC's from Day one. Two guys I know who own AC shops tell me the Booster caps will extend the life of a weak compressor motor in any case given the hard starts are running more current through the wingdings than it can handle over time. Can't hurt to have it and they are cheapo. I have learned that some of the new RV AC's now come with them as normal equipment and are advertised as lower current start up (for the generators). It will help with the start ups on the generator for sure even if we find a wiring issue to correct the problem. I have installed on an AC before where the Generator would fault and the AC would drop off, but the booster cap was just enough to not fault. Probably don't matter for shore power all else being the same.

Tommy B. Howdy;

Have to apologize for my statement <" Perhaps the folks that installed yours grabbed the A/C from the wrong shelf???">
There wouldn't be a wrong shelf... by that I mean that all of the A/Cs are the (basically), same just some, like yours
would be an add on for a 50 amp. RV or as a solo for something on the smaller side where the heat and a/c together in
a single unit would be beneficial for saving space and weight. Again, my apology.

So, what else can cause your problem other then fixating on the A/C. Don't want any thing jumping up and down waving
it arms a shouting at ya. Have you the proper size wire run to the unit? No shorts in the wire 's route? The correct sized
circuit breaker in the panel? Anything else for the troubleshooting list?

hank

Bingo!! ..

[Tommy B]

Well here are a few pics of things as they went. Much trouble shooting by the master of electronics.

I will let him splain it all when he can. Problems diagnosed and corrected other then me ordering a generac generator fuse to fix one of a few problems.

That flux capacitor really seems to generate 10,000 jigga watts it seems as the AC compressor starts right up and quite too. Still running now and I will leave it on for a few hours just to be sure.

What can I say but thank you Don for your time and patience.

See those black xs on the generator? Those indicate outlets connected to the same bad/weak breaker. Don will explain it.

[flboy]

Actually, there were three different issues of which #1 was fixed by the Hard Start Cap and #2 is masked for now. The third problem was with the Generator.

Problem#1, A/C was starting hard as suspected... ~62A peak @ startup with burdened Humm which took a second or two (no significant voltage drop on wiring) and ~40A after the Booster cap with a very robust and immediate start. The slow start was blowing a GFCI breaker in Tommy's garage only sometimes, but not the regular 15A outlet breaker that is not GFCI.

Problem#2 which still confuses me some. Possibly, the Neutral bonding somewhere needs to be improved as it only take ~5mA (1/5000 of an Amp) to trip a GFCI. I think the 62A at startup is just high enough to get to the trip where 40 amp is not. This can be an issue in campgrounds and etc. depending on how the Neutral and Ground is bonded and where and how long the wire run and etc.. I'd need to dig into this a little more to figure out how to avoid that on GFCI's that are not in the camper. (don't think there should be any bonding in the RV and I didn't see any where Tommy wired up the panel?) It is possible there is a leakage current somewhere... but if it was the insulation breaking down somewhere, I'd think it would do that during normal run also given it is the voltage that breaks down the insulation to where current can start to trickle.. The voltage is the same +/- a few volts regardless of the current. ?? If it is a leak, it will only get worse over time. Any ideas on this one guys? Could be problem with the GFCI and the high current @ startup spike... maybe something inductive into the GFCI sense circuit? This stumps me some, but clearly a lower startup current made a difference to the GFCI circuit.

Problem#3 Affected by #1 and #2 also... but after running a while, I noticed the current going up on the compressor. Voltage was dropping. Then wham, one of the the breakers pops on the Gen... Tommy has it connected via the 30A outlet on the Gen, which some don't realize is a 30A outlet with only 15A capability (shares breaker with one of the 15A outlets) .. I moved to another outlet on the dual 15A outlet, and no problems. I didn't troubleshoot the gen further because I would have had to take things apart... but the breaker or one winding on the Generator may have an issue (most likely the breaker... but couldn't get to the back of it without much disassembly to verify).

Tommy is happy now as he can run the A/C this summer on the Generator and Shore power.. That was the goal. The A/C unit runs about 12A with Compressor working and the Fan on high.. so any 15A circuit should work all day... but the weak ones will warm up and occasionally pop. With the max startup current improvement and decreased duration, then Gen does not choke and stumble... but increased speed as expected.

Note on Generators that advertise 4000W 240VAC or 120VAC. The 240VAC is two 120VAC legs 180 degrees out of phase. The 30A 120VAC outlet is only one leg of the Generator winding and capable of only 1/2 the Generators output power albeit connected to a 30A outlet for convenience to most RVers' with thier 30A plugs . You can use both 15A outlets on different devices to get the full 4000W. So... running a 13,500 BTU AC which is overkill on most small campers will cause issues when using some generators that advertise 4000w or even 5000W. If they could run off the 240VAC... it would be fine.

Bottom line... glad I could help a friend out!

BTW... a comment.. this Supco Booster allowed the AC to be turned on and off rather quickly and it would muscle through the high head pressure without much effort and not tripping a breaker and only a little bit of a stumble on the Generator. Without the Booster, it would choke and stumble as you'd expect..

[McDave]

Excellent work on troubleshooting and diagnoses. The root of the problem(s) has been uncovered and addressed. Now, there are a lot more knowns than unknowns. And of coarse, bottom line, it works.
Outstanding work Don!
It was a great day for another Don as well. Hard work and commitment really pays off. My hat is off to you both.

McDave

[hankaye]

Tommy B. & flboy, Howdy;

Congratulations! Now you can choose a time to work on getting things straightened out with the genny.
Always nicer to be able to pick & choose that kinda thing. , !

Don, I do remember way back when ... I guy I worked for told me never to 'ring' a wire when I was trimming
the insulation off of it as it can lead to the wire (single), being weakened. Could that, perhaps, lead to the
Neutral problem that you mentioned in #2 ? Just askin' as my curiosity is now jumpin' around a bit. .

hank

[flboy]

Thanks McDave.

Hank, I was thinking more of an alternative path situation depending on where the neutral and grounds are connected together outside the RV (the nuetral bond). In my head I was thinking for that momentary demand of 62A through the 12ga wires that are at least 25 to 30 geet long, the ground path to nuetral being shorter and of less resistance closer to the outlet, may be enough to get 5ma and blow the GFCI ... whereas the 40A startup may get less than 5ma from the alternative path and not trip it. That would explain the issues at the RV parks and etc which used GFCI at the post. I guess a wire that was "weaker" than the other due to a nick, or etc. may just increase the likely hood of the same problem?? Could contribute?

The way those circuits work is if the GFCI circuit does not see everything come back on the neutral that goes out on the hot within 5ma.. it blows (you probably already know that). If the outlet momentarily gets a little back from the ground path to neutral close to the outlet, it would be unbalanced. I have no way to tell and I may be thinking of it wrong. Just a theory I can't test easily. The only thing I do know is that the lower startup current works.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[hankaye]

flboy, Howdy;

When you said "The way those circuits work is if the circuit don't see everything come back on the nuetral
that goes out on the hot within 5ma.. it blows (you probably already know that)."
X 1,000
Boy I'll tell ya, you can make jokes with the best of'em ... I know turn switch ON/OFF, Plug in or out, circut breaker
thrown then re-set. Yea, I can do a continuity check, and see if a battery is ok. I'm just Mr. Basic and get shocked
more then I'd care for... Pop had an expression he'd drop on me often, "Ya got a question ... go ask an expert." I've
become a very good asker of questions.

hank

[McDave]

Tommy or Don,
Wait a minute,
Just to be clear, we did verify that the breaker in question is HACR, correct? Please say yes.
I'm not sure that HACR and GFCI are even intended for the same purpose. Tommy, could you get a pic of the breaker. This is what you are looking for.
Arrow # 3 pic. # 1 "HACR "
This is an important detail, listed in the install manual as well as the troubleshooting guide. Probably a "good idea" to start with the proper equipment at step 1. just sayin'

https://www.schneider-electric.us/docum ... s-iaei.pdf

McDave

[hankaye]

McDave, Howdy;

Go on down to pg 63 Right Hand column where is addresses that specific requirement.
I may not know much about electricity but I do know how to read, I think, maybe, oh crap,
now I've confused me


hank

[flboy]

Tommy or Don,
Wait a minute,
Just to be clear, we did verify that the breaker in question is HACR, correct? Please say yes.
I'm not sure that HACR and GFCI are even intended for the same purpose. Tommy, could you get a pic of the breaker. This is what you are looking for.
Arrow # 3 pic. # 1 "HACR "
This is an important detail, listed in the install manual as well as the troubleshooting guide. Probably a "good idea" to start with the proper equipment at step 1. just sayin'

https://www.schneider-electric.us/docum ... s-iaei.pdf

McDave

HACR rated breakers open within a specified time curve consistently as I understand it (meant for surges related to inductive motor start ups and nuisance breaker popping so it makes sense that a manufacturer of an AC would specify that).. kinda like a slow blow fuse so they can take a surge without immediately popping. A GFCI is for a totally different purpose and that is to protect for shorts to ground . I think UL testing in the late 80's included this HACR test for most breakers and mainly for the DUAL pole breakers for the 240AC applications. In the case of Tommy's AC, it is not the standard breaker that is popping, it was the GFCI.

The main reason why I think this is not a HACR rating issue is that larger window AC's and all kinds of compressors are in peoples homes to plug into various 120VAC outlets... You have no idea what someone may plug in on a circuit. Probably true for campgrounds and etc.. Who knows what breakers they have installed. From what I understand ( and I am not a certified electrician at all) if you have a breaker from 1995 or later in the US, HACR may not be marked because they all are by design.

In Tommy's Power center, the breakers never blew as I understand it and they are all newer Square D type without a lot markings other that the manufacturer and current rating.


All that said... I guess it is possible to pull into a rusty old campground with breakers from the 70's and have the breaker at the pole popping when the AC comes on because it is not a HACR rated breaker.

McDave... it is astually kinda funny when you thing about it... Tommy's AC goes through no less that 3 breakers to get to power... the 20 circuit breaker, the 30A main, and then another 20A in his house panel to the outlet which has a GFCI built in. My guess is that is why all the breakers these days are HACR... because who knows what you are gonna get. The same in the case of the generator.... it has a breaker on the outlets also.

[McDave]

"3.2 BREAKER
MAKE SURE THAT THE POWER SUPPLY TO
THE UNIT IS DISCONNECTED BEFORE PERFORMING
ANY WORK ON THE UNIT TO AVOID
THE POSSIBILITY OF SHOCK INJURY OR
DAMAGE TO THE EQUIPMENT.
The unit circuit is to be protected by a time delay fuse or
HACR (heating, air conditioner, refrigerator) breaker. By
taking an amp reading at the unit AC voltage supply line,
you can determine if the breaker is tripping prematurely.
Place a clamp-on type ammeter around the black wire
from the breaker going to the unit. Turn on the unit and
record amp draw. If the breaker trips before the rated
amperage, replace the breaker."

Also note the date of publication of the breaker ID diagram.
"IAEI NEWS November.December 2006"

[flboy]

"3.2 BREAKER
MAKE SURE THAT THE POWER SUPPLY TO
THE UNIT IS DISCONNECTED BEFORE PERFORMING
ANY WORK ON THE UNIT TO AVOID
THE POSSIBILITY OF SHOCK INJURY OR
DAMAGE TO THE EQUIPMENT.
The unit circuit is to be protected by a time delay fuse or
HACR (heating, air conditioner, refrigerator) breaker. By
taking an amp reading at the unit AC voltage supply line,
you can determine if the breaker is tripping prematurely.
Place a clamp-on type ammeter around the black wire
from the breaker going to the unit. Turn on the unit and
record amp draw. If the breaker trips before the rated
amperage, replace the breaker."

Also note the date of publication of the breaker ID diagram.
"IAEI NEWS November.December 2006"

McDave.. you may have missed the edit I made just before you posted... which breaker do we check? and at the campgrounds too? They may have published that in 2006, but probably to cover themselves when people or AC guys are installing in an older houses/trailers/etc.. without updated electrical panels.

copy and paste from above:

"McDave... it is actually kinda funny when you thing about it... Tommy's AC goes through no less than 3 breakers to get to power... the 20 circuit breaker, the 30A main, and then another 20A in his house panel to the outlet which has a GFCI built in. My guess is that is why all the breakers these days are HACR rated... because who knows what you are gonna get. The same in the case of the generator.... it has a breaker on the outlets also."