Production

[Bruue1]

I'm thinking about designing and building a few camper prototypes for production. Keeping efficiency and repeatability in mind with the design. I think I could do three prototypes in the next two years funded by me. They'll be foam covered in canvas. Similar to my wood endoskeleton, foam exoskeleton camper but I want to use recycled composite material instead of wood on the inside this time. Aluminum frame. Light weight, small, durable and nothing that can rot or rust (except the exterior canvas).

Three campers: A Tear Drop, A Pick Up Truck Camper and a small 4 person Travel Trailer (basically copying the one I built).

I'll file an LLC, I know I'll be contacting the DMV and asking them what inspections are required, etc... I haven't made that call yet.

I'm curious if anyone here knows what is required to get these campers titled as "New" from MFD rather than "Homebuilt". New ones can be financed and insured and are therefore much more sellable.

FYI: In case you're interested, I'm envisioning a for profit company that uses sustainable practices and puts a percentage of its profits into building temporary housing/shelters on wheels. As many people on this site have said before me I think these foam boxes on wheels would be a great solution to low income housing and emergency shelters. In the years to come I can foresee an increasing demand for this type of housing. Of course its a dream right now, but, everything has a beginning. The journey matters more than fruition.

So any thoughts on DMV regulations for "New" titling?

Any thoughts on construction? Production?

What sort of composite materials am I looking for for the interior frame? for the interior sheathing? Cabinets? I want it durable and something people can live in 365/year if they have to.

Any thoughts/comments at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Bruue1]

Before Jacques Fresco went to Venus he designed and developed prototypes of modular aluminum and glass homes that could be built in ten hours by 8 men to provide low cost efficient housing. When he realized that the cost of the financier's bureaucracy necessary to produce these would negate the low cost advantage over stick built homes the deal fell through. Jacques Fresco decided that to avoid having his inventions exploited for profit, rather than benefiting society as a whole, he would need to change society itself. He envisioned a resource base economy. That is when he went to Venus. I think Jacques Fresco's legacy of dreams is amazing and inspirational but I also wish he had continued trying to build low cost, energy efficient housing. We still have a long ways to go. The world is overpopulated. There are many women and children living over exposed in the world, more than can be counted. The least a person in a position of relative privilege can do is to try to provide some shelter.

Foam for All!

[John61CT]

I think the DMV is not the major hurdle.

Biggest barrier in the US would be liability insurance.

Having the blueprints drawn by a licensed engineer with good E&O insurance would I think be required as a first step.

Of course if you are judgement proof, by having no assets for anyone to seize, maybe NP?

Or great lawyers structuring the corp / LLC?

[greygoos]

What are the manufacturing standards for RVs?
Walter Cannon, executive director of the RV Safety and Education Foundation said that most RVs are produced by manufacturers who follow specific federal safety standards, as well as standards imposed by their industry association. Roeske said the manufacturer certifies that the RV meets safety regulations. If you make or customize your own RV, he said, "then you certify that it meets regulations."

[John61CT]

The self-regulating Association ones are voluntary.

The US market relies mostly on its system of civil tort law and the insurance industry to encourage safety in consumer products.

[Ottsville]

I would have your trailers built and titled by a trailer manufacturer, then sell the trailer and shell as a combo.

How difficult it is to become a trailer manufacturer will depend on your state. You may also need to become a vehicle dealer if you are selling them which would allow you to hold unassigned titles. Again totally depends on your state and how willing you are to jump through hoops.

There's a member on ExPo trailer forum who claims to be a involved in RV manufacturing and seems to be knowledgeable.

My gut tells me it's not really worth it to become a manufacturer per se, probably better to have someone buy a trailer and come to you for a build.

[John61CT]

Actually a couple different slide-on "living pod" units that fit multiple trailers might work, the industry is still very local / regional, and you might find resellers to stock the OTS designs.

The custom-built ones would need to be very pricey to get the same margins.

I reckon not worth all the hassle unless shooting for at least 4-6 a month throughput.

[KTM_Guy]

I'm thinking about designing and building a few camper prototypes for production. Keeping efficiency and repeatability in mind with the design. I think I could do three prototypes in the next two years funded by me. They'll be foam covered in canvas. Similar to my wood endoskeleton, foam exoskeleton camper but I want to use recycled composite material instead of wood on the inside this time. Aluminum frame. Light weight, small, durable and nothing that can rot or rust (except the exterior canvas).

Three campers: A Tear Drop, A Pick Up Truck Camper and a small 4 person Travel Trailer (basically copying the one I built).

I'll file an LLC, I know I'll be contacting the DMV and asking them what inspections are required, etc... I haven't made that call yet.

I'm curious if anyone here knows what is required to get these campers titled as "New" from MFD rather than "Homebuilt". New ones can be financed and insured and are therefore much more sellable.

FYI: In case you're interested, I'm envisioning a for profit company that uses sustainable practices and puts a percentage of its profits into building temporary housing/shelters on wheels. As many people on this site have said before me I think these foam boxes on wheels would be a great solution to low income housing and emergency shelters. In the years to come I can foresee an increasing demand for this type of housing. Of course its a dream right now, but, everything has a beginning. The journey matters more than fruition.

So any thoughts on DMV regulations for "New" titling?

Any thoughts on construction? Production?

What sort of composite materials am I looking for for the interior frame? for the interior sheathing? Cabinets? I want it durable and something people can live in 365/year if they have to.

Any thoughts/comments at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

I'll add my $.02. even though you got some good replies already.

As was said have an engineer design your frame and final plans.

Find someone to make your frames, wired and painted. Your bring them in and add the axles and wheel. Another company CNC cuts your wall, floor, and roof parts. Another company builds the cabinets. Your production is put everything together. I know it's probably not what you were thinking and if I was making campers I would want to be making all the parts in-house. Its just not practical unless you have the capital to invest upfront. Do you have much production capable equipment now? I don't follow the foamy builds so am not to up on them but what you need to avoid is dry time. If something takes 4 hours to dry does all work stop on that camper? Then you need room to store campers waiting to dry. More space = more overhead.

Thats great you want to use sustainable products. But the down side is they cost more and sometimes a lot more. You can sell the as sustainable and charge a premium price. A lot of people don't care and will buy a cheaper camper. The people I know that live a green life and would be drawn to sustainable building life a simple live and probably can't afford a premium camper, thats if they have a car to pull it. I was looking for some 5/4 X 6 recycled plastic boards, could find what I was looking for but similar, I thought they were pricing gold bars. It was nuts what they wanted.

I'm guessing you never worked in low-income housing? I have in South Chicago. It was a government project taking duplex houses built after WWII that were gutted to the concrete walls and floors, even the stairs were poured inlace concrete. We were putting in the top of the line Carrier HVAC equipment, with electronic air cleaners, humidifiers all the best. I could buy at cost and still couldn't ford this stuff for my own house. It was 500-600 units, the requirements to get into the housing was high, job, kids in school with good attendance and grades. We would have to service the occupied units until the job was done. It was amazing how trashed some units would be, broken light fixture, broken toilet that has been leaking for month. One unit I went into the door was broken off the fridge and there was a towel over pat of the door. I will say also some units were kept up great. So from my experience if you are going to give/sell something made of foam to low-income it's life span will be measured in months.

I'm still building my first teardrop and have had two people ask if I could build them one. I would not build cabin and frame from scratch to try to sell them, but I have been thinking of just building the cabin and they could buy the trailer from Northern or HF get it plated and bring that over and pick up a build cabin that would just be moved to their trailer. I would get it so far, inclosed with cabinets maybe doors and then list it on CL as an uncompleted teardrop. Most people can varnish, or paint and sand, let them do that stuff I'll do the hard part. Keep it simple and may be able to turn them out in four month or shorter if say you can cut the material for 3 cabins as a timeout only assemble one at a time. I wouldn't have room to work on more that one at a time.

Good luck

Todd

[Ottsville]

Can we really call building with foam "sustainable?" Sure, its benefits in housing construction may outweigh the environmental impact of its production and waste generated in its usage, but I doubt that is the case in a recreational trailer(read "superfluous item") where the need for insulation is little.

[John61CT]

Don't project your mainstream situation on "everyone"

Insulation can be critical, depends on the location and season.

And you know how many people live full-time in vans / cars / small campers?

Check out cheaprvliving.com, #vandwelling

They are often just a very small set away from truly homeless, requiring gov / private shelter assistance.

[Ottsville]

Don't project your mainstream situation on "everyone"

Insulation can be critical, depends on the location and season.

And you know how many people live full-time in vans / cars / small campers?

Check out cheaprvliving.com, #vandwelling

They are often just a very small set away from truly homeless, requiring gov / private shelter assistance.

Perhaps you misunderstood the question. Is building with EPS really a sustainable, or green, practice?

From Bruue1's original post:

FYI: In case you're interested, I'm envisioning a for profit company that uses sustainable practices and puts a percentage of its profits into building temporary housing/shelters on wheels. As many people on this site have said before me I think these foam boxes on wheels would be a great solution to low income housing and emergency shelters. In the years to come I can foresee an increasing demand for this type of housing. Of course its a dream right now, but, everything has a beginning. The journey matters more than fruition.

There is no doubt that there are people out there who could benefit from extremely affordable housing. Totally agree with you there and people in need are generally not concerned with sustainability until their needs are met. The people that Bruue will be marketing to to support his charity work will be asking the same question.

[tony.latham]

This thread seems to be somewhat dancing off towards distant rabbit holes...

What sort of composite materials am I looking for for the interior frame? for the interior sheathing? Cabinets?

Me? I'd go with a cellulose/lignin composite. There's just something about wood. Just like a house, as long as it's properly built and well sealed it'll be something to argue over if the owner didn't include in his/her will.

So any thoughts on DMV regulations for "New" titling?

As you've probably figured out, each state has its own process for this. When I've obtained VINs here in Idaho for my projects, the same inspector does the commercial folks and I had the sense that if I ever went that direction --and I'm not-- it'd be a simple process. (I think one of her main goals is to ensure stolen parts aren't being laundered.)

Keep the course.



Tony

[John61CT]

Sustainability is in the eye of the beholder.

A mobile dwelling lifestyle consumes **way** less of everything overall.

Using the strongest, cheap, most effective insulating material regardless of how green it is is just one tiny factor, and IMO a worthwhile compromise.

Don't let perfect become enemy of the good.

[Bruue1]

Wow, there is a lot of response and a lot of good info in these posts. Thank you for the comments. I did read every one and appreciate your time in creating them.

Maybe the thing to do is just to skip the camper side of it all together. Just design and build a low cost modular shelters. Something that ships as stacked panels.

I think I'll do some research, go serve some food down at the shelter in St Paul. Talk to some people and see what the needs are.

Thinking about it now I was pretty pompous to just assume I knew how to help without even getting face time with the community I'm interested in serving. I feel like I was trying to validate myself. It was like creating a solution before correctly identifying the problem.

I mean is the city just going to allow a shanty town of temporary boxes all over? Probably not. Would it help if they were on trailer frames?

I could see this idea being more realistic in less developed countries along flooded coast lines or refugee camps, but again, I really don't know much about the day to day problems faced by people who have been displaced from their homes. Honestly I'm probably not going to pick up my kids and beautiful wife and run across the world to find out.

So the first thing I am going to do is go find out what I am talking about. I will go volunteer at a homeless shelter.

If I draw up some pictures of trailer designs, I'll start a build thread with them. Probably in the foamy section. Thanks again.

[Tom&Shelly]

I think I'll do some research, go serve some food down at the shelter in St Paul. Talk to some people and see what the needs are.

Thinking about it now I was pretty pompous to just assume I knew how to help without even getting face time with the community I'm interested in serving. I feel like I was trying to validate myself. It was like creating a solution before correctly identifying the problem.

I admire both your motivation and critical self assessment.

If you were in this to make money, obviously the poor and homeless would not be where to look. Since you are in it to do good, your set of fresh eyes on the problems will likely contribute something positive. Best of luck with this!

Tom