The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

[KCStudly]

Understood, will do. You, too!

[Bruce Schneider]

How disappointing!
But, Thank You!
I just finished reading your 296 page diary titled, “The Poet Creek Express – Foamie Hybrid”. To say I felt a bit let down would be a major understatement. But you have clarified some things for me and for that I am truly grateful.

Let me explain further:
We are much alike, in so many ways, that it is almost scary. We share many interests and characteristics. I caught that you have a chopped truck, and enjoy drag racing. You don’t care much about lawn work and you have a hard time finishing projects. Something more interesting or challenging comes along and you are off on another adventure.

I have many unfinished projects. The major ones are cars, 1956 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery, 1937 Chevrolet hot rod with a 292 six cylinder and a yet to be determined hot rod roadster that I keep buying parts for. I have a fairly complete machine shop with a lathe and mill, lots of tools and a nice place to work.
I love building stuff and am very detail oriented. I first started reading your thread because the idea of a foamy intrigues me. Right away, I could see that your desire to do something to the best of your ability was paramount. You made a point early on that you have seen too many builds get stalled and disappear from the board. I got sucked in because you promised that you would be different. I was looking for inspiration and possibly the key to finishing a project with ALL the details completed.

As you went along, I could see that this was going to be a long but thorough build. As you approached each item, you analyzed everything to the point that even I was saying, “Get on with it, already.” Looking at the page count, and comparing it to where you were in the process, I could see that it was going to take me some time to wade through it all. But, I didn’t skip ahead. I will admit to skimming through some of the side trips as I was particularly interested in the skinning.

Now, you don’t know me from Adam, but I feel as if I know you through this thread. As I reflect on my own life I see myself having done a lot of amazing things. (amazing to me at least) What I have learned through doing them is that the journey is the most fun. But, the few times I have completed tasks to the very end were the most rewarding. So, I’m chastising you and myself when I say, “Get off your ass and finish it!”

If you have given up because you hate body work, get someone else to do it. There is no shame in farming out jobs that you are either not good at or just plain hate. Will they do it the way you would have? No, but they will do it. You haven’t done it in all this time.

I think that the PCE got off track when the finish of the fiberglass did not meet your expectations. Then punkin chunkin, jeep axles, and shooting pool became a higher priority than the camper. More fun, more challenging.

Several folks on the board have attempted to reinvigorate your enthusiasm. The one I thought would push you over the top was Tony with his trips and pics of Poet Creek. After all, that was the inspiration for the build in the first place. Is that going to be the one item on your bucket list that doesn’t get done? I think I can feel your frustration with that. You had a dream of recreating the childhood trips. You put yourself in the dream as the creator of the perfect camper to make this trek. EVERYTHING would be perfect. The galley, the gun case, the ax and shovel, the trailer coupler, the windows, the doors. Now that the skin isn’t perfect, you can’t continue with the dream. You can’t sell what you have, because then you will be letting go of the dream. Financially, it would be a big hit. Someone else would get the benefit of all your hard work and you would be lucky to get 25 cents on the dollar of your investment. But, the biggest thing is that they wouldn’t finish it to your standards.

You owe it to yourself to finish it. I think that you also owe it to Karl. He has given you the shop space, the tools and even some of the materials. For God’s sake, the man cut your grass so you would have time to work on the dream.

Do it for your Mom, do it for your Dad, do it for all the folks that have cheered you on through it all. But, DO IT!

Your thread and the resultant unfinished project has given me motivation and direction for myself. I have a trailer frame that I would build a foamie on. But, I won’t start it until I have caught up on my other projects. If they are not going to get done, I’ll sell them off. I’m 73 and I won’t get to everything. But, no more loose ends!

Bruce

[KCStudly]

I couldn't say it any better. You are spot on. I need to get off my arse.

I did fix "the last" 2 blisters ( ), and got a pneumatic "filer" (long board air sander) for my recent b-day, so hopefully things will start moving faster again.

Thanks for the kind words... and the big nudge.

[Bruce Schneider]

You do realize that I was saying that to myself as much as I was to you. I want to see TPCE done. And, I need to get myself straightened out and finish my own stuff!

[working on it]

* Though you claim to espouse the TLAR method

Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"

, it seems that you really favor perfectionism (the refusal to accept any standard short of perfection). Nothing wrong with that, but it does tend to delay completion of any project.

* I started my trailer project at the shop of my engine builder, who had space to work in, more tools than I had, and expertise to share with me. Sorta like Karl's shop, Mecca, where you have your build located. Though I did make as best an effort to finish my trailer there (50+ miles from home), I had to work on his other projects while there, and it took about 11 months to complete? the outer shell enough to take it home to my garage. Once home, I made it campable in another 11 months, since I had no other distractions, and could resort to TLAR methodology.

* At my friend's shop, I was held to his standards of construction, often to correcting 1/32" off-perfect lines and hole placement. Obviously that perfectionism is crucial to building racecars and race engines, but not so much on a plywood camping trailer, just for my use, and never to be sold to anyone else. As I was, and still am a shade-tree mechanic and novice woodworker, I get my measurements as close as I can, but if it looks right, then....

* I do finish my projects, usually obsessing over them to the detriment of other things going on, unlike my wife who never ever has completed any project (until I take it over, the TLAR way. I agree with Bruce Schneider , in that your perfectionism may have caused you to look away from the TPCE, and focus on everything else to put it out of your mind for extended lengths of time.

* Perhaps, you should bring your trailer home ASAP, in order to refocus upon its' completion? As your extended build journal of 296+ pages documents, your trailer might never be finished at your current rate of production. I'll draw a parallel: in Arthur C.Clarke's story, "The Nine Billion Names of God", when the last remaining name has been said/known, the stars start twinkling out. When TPCE is completed, I'll expect the same announcement....

[KCStudly]

So, it’s been a while. Life changes.

And some actual build progress.

Not sure if I’ve mentioned that the black Jeep and the Ford have been sold. I had been thinking about selling the Ford before things started going wrong with it… then, a month later, things went wrong with it. Electronic steering assist went out and, with some other upkeep issues, basically cost what it was worth to fix.

Since Yvette and I had been sharing the 2016 Hard Rock and enjoying it, I figured, why not get another one?

Dueling Hard Rocks.


It’s a 2017 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Hard Rock Edition. Loaded with similar features and add on extras like the 2016. It’s an automatic with the semi-auto manual override feature (i.e. a slap shift feature that holds gears when in manual mode). It has larger than stock tires (285/75-17, equivalent to 33.8 inch tall) on MOPAR “Bead Lock Ready” wheels (the trim rings can be replaced with proper bead lock flanges). It also came with a full set of five of the factory wheels (which is how I found the for sale ad; I was looking for take off wheels to match the camper to the 2016). This one has the factory head unit with built in GPS (but no backup camera… will have to add one on). Has body color fenders and Freedom hard top, and came with the soft top new in box, never installed. Already has a receiver hitch and 4-wire trailer hookup installed. Anyway.

On the camper, last year at about this time I tried to get active again, attempting to address the blisters on the street side wall. I had some success, but not enough to fully quell my discouragement.

In the next pic, looking from the top of the wall with the edge of the galley to the left, you can see the lighter patch to the left, surrounded by yellowish/clear epoxy. This is one of the “original” blisters that I fixed by drilling a series of holes thru the outer FG skin using a drill stop; then hand twisting the bit in each hole down thru the foam until I reached the inner plywood skin; then syringed neat epoxy into the holes, palpitating to move the epoxy around; then weighed down a flat board with packing tape release. The excess epoxy oozed out of most of the holes (resulting in the yellowish/clear cured layer), but not all of the holes stayed full. The whiter colored patch is the result of skimming with epoxy fairing compound and sanding back.

While sanding this back, the two areas circled with red sharpie were discovered. More blisters. Now I can’t be sure if I just hadn’t noticed these before (? seems unlikely), or if they were newly developed. One concern was that they could be cropping up from the pressure of sanding somehow causing delaminations; but that doesn’t track when you consider that some of these blisters were springy/spongy before I drilled them, and then weren’t afterwards (as if some gas build up was making them puff out. In the pic you can see the circled area to the left that has been drilled, and the one near the batten yet to be drilled. The batten is aligned between the running light wire way at the base of the wall (top of pic) and the clearance light wire way at the top (bottom of pic), showing the wire path between them and where not to drill.


In this pic looking back the other way, with the sun, you can see how horrible the body work appeared at that time.


Here are the boards with weights trying to keep the blisters flat while the injected epoxy cures. Not totally successful, some oozed out and settled under the slightly warped board creating more opportunities to sand (will this ever end?)


So while sanding that back fair and the rest of this general area, I found an area in the middle of one of the previously “fixed” areas, and another adjacent area, that were still soft/sticking up. You can’t just sand these areas because the blisters stick up; when you sand it the skin gets thin and you still haven’t sanded and faired the surrounding area. Discouraging.

I have a bunch of PTO (personal time off) saved up at my day job, so I decided to take a week off and just work on the camper, trying to get back into it and get “over the hump”, so to speak.

In the meantime I have continued to watch various Youtube channels of interest. One of which is “Tips from a Shipwright”. This old codger makes pretty good quality videos of his wooden boat building efforts. He uses a combination of traditional materials, including hand selected timber and custom mill work, as well as more modern materials and methods. One of the products he demonstrated recently was Total Boat’s Total Fair epoxy fairing compound used to fill FG weave (at about 5:30 min into the video linky < ). This seemed like it might be a much better solution than the 410 filled West System that I have been using. Just mix the yellow part A equally with the blue part B until it turns green, then spread. Seems very forgiving on mix ratio… just eyeball it… is purported to adhere in all orientations without sagging (which is not true for the 410), and is supposed to sand easily (but they all say that).

Okay, I’ll bite. What else can I “load my gun with” for success? Many have advised that I use steel plaster spreaders. And, instead of hand sanding, switch to a pneumatic long board, referred to as a “file” in tha’ bis-ness.

So I got these.


Strung two 50 ft air hoses together from downstairs and got set up this morning.

Now, most of the roof and the area behind the door on the street side have already been mostly done with the 410; and Karl and I had already laid the cabin over on its side to try and mitigate the sagging issue. In fact I was considering mixing a much thinner batch of the 410 in the hopes of it being self leveling. But I figured the hatch (which is curvy and not possible to orient with the whole surface horizontal) and the front wall with front roof radius (that can’t be turned up enough to lay flat) would be good areas for the Total Fair. If I like it I can use it on the curb side wall, too.

Anyway, rather than mix epoxy and try to fix the two small areas, then have to wait til it cured, I decided to try out the air file on the rest of the rear portion of the wall. Hard to see, but after just a few minutes work it was already looking, and feeling, much better.


With the two tub vacuum setup I was able to put the separator tub up on the scaffold with me, but the power unit had to stay on the floor. After climbing up and down a few times to turn the vacuum on and off, that got tired; so I got smart and used a stick to reach the switch.


After a couple of sessions, only a few minutes each; followed by rest periods and vacuuming the dust (always wear respirator and goggles) it was already looking much much better.


Prior to mixing epoxy, all of the low glassy areas of long cured epoxy would need to be scuffed up. I had a small square of that really course sanding belt (the fabric backed one that I got from Karl’s really big belt sander), but it was kind of stiff to just wrap around the small block, and my hands have gone soft from working a desk job, plus I needed a soft back to get down in the lows; so I wrapped a shop paper towel around, creased the piece of belt the best I could, and held it onto the block by wrapping it with masking tape.


The shop had a visit from one of Karl’s customers. Karl helped Tony Scalia develop a couple of his dress-up products for late model Dodge Chargers and Challengers. He drives a nice Hell Cat, worth a pic for those in the know.


Karl got to go for a ride, but I was covered in white sanding dust and didn’t want to climb into the black interior. When they accelerated (hard) out on the main road (about a 1/4 mile away through woods) the thing sounded wicked! Karl said it was faster than anything he has owned, I presume including the Kawi 1100. He said it still spun tire even with the traction control on. Zowser. I looked it up, these are 10.8 second cars capable of top speeds over 200 mph. Double Zowser.

Anyway, I decided to try the “runny” 410 filler idea and, after squirting some neat into the new holes I drilled in the two small soft spots, I mixed up a few batches and spread it on using, mostly, the new 12 inch “knife”.


Tomorrow is another day.

[lfhoward]

Hi KC! The progress you’re making on the PCE is significant. Sounds like you have been learning a lot and implementing some changes to your process to hopefully permanently eliminate the blisters. I hope they stay gone this time! I can imagine how discouraging it could have been when they just kept appearing, no matter what you did and how much work went into it. Fingers crossed that your trailer is over that hump now and you can move on to part of the build that is much more fun.

I really like the two matching JK Rubicons. Very cool. Do you and your wife take them on wheeling trips together? I am interested in what kind of communication setup you have to be able to talk back and forth. My Jeep has a CB in it but from what I hear and read, a GMRS radio is the way to go these days because it is as easy to use as a CB, but with tons more range and better clarity. I am thinking about upgrading that at some point, but probably not before whenever the next Jeep trip is (not on the calendar yet).

It’s always cool to see your new posts on this thread. Glad you are hanging in there!

[KCStudly]

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Thanks, LFH.

On my way to Mecca now to see how we did.

I would have taken the 2016 on the last Unimog run, but the wife wouldn't let me, too new and didn't want me to break it.

It is surprising hard to find places to wheel around here. Despite all of the wooded land, it is all private property.

No coms in the Jeeps, though we have used walkie-talkies in the past. Both have hands free cell connectivity/wifi, so when service is available that would be an option.

Thx again for the shout out!

[KCStudly]

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I don't think the thin mix of 410 was the way to fly. It didn't self level the way I had hoped.

So another round of amine washing, and "jitter bugging" (air file long board); followed by local low scuffing, vacuuming, and wiping down with paper towels damped with acetone (oil and wax removal), then a much thicker two pump batch of 410 (Bondo consistency) to hit most of the lows. Some of the lows I had created by not being able to reach the whole surface from one stance. I started on the top side working off of the step stool, then shifted to the bottom side working off of the scaffold. When I tried to blend the second batch, the first batch was a little tacky and my lack of skill with the knife created some crease lines that didn't fully sand out.

Now I had thought I would do a mix of 403 (structural thickener) with the 410 (fairing filler) to help plug the drilled holes, but after adding a heaping teaspoon of the 403, and three heaping spoons of the 410, it was way too thin; so I added a bunch more 410. I had estimated the size of the batch wrong; too much to just fill the drilled holes, but to little to do all of the low spots and missed areas (around some of the edges and wire recesses, and up to the door header and footer). The 403, being a larger particle size, had the tendency to create streaks in the "mud", but there were only a few and I stayed after it and managed to fill them in. Rather than mix another batch and run into the freshly laid areas, I wrapped it up to get ready for tonight's pool match.

So Monday I just sort of stared at it and tried to decide where to jump back in (while putting a fresh tip on a team mate's cue). Yesterday, Tuesday, it was about 7 hrs, but maybe only 3 were productive; and today it was about 4 hrs and probably 2 were productive. My stamina isn't what it used to be, taking frequent breaks to rest my back and get out of the PPE, but my percentage of work vs. staring is increasing!

[GPW]

Ahem !!! There was some mention in the beginning of how much a PIA Fiberglass over foam would be...

[KCStudly]

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Yeah, so?

Ya pays ya money, ya takes ya choice.

I think at least some of my troubles could have been avoided if I had planned to do FG from the beginning, had not used the spackle, and had done a sealer coat of epoxy/fairing filler on the foam before any additive attempt at fairing to shape was made. All of these suggestions were made "in the beginning" as well. I wouldn't have cared about any weight penalty the extra epoxy based/glass filler products would have added.

Also, I haven't found any blisters or soft spots on any of the other surfaces (... so far ), so I hope the rest of it will go easier. And there is a learning curve with any process.

Can't really say that I would have been happy with canvas, anyway. So... so what.

I am happy with the hard shell, the crisp flocked corners, and many other aspects of this method. I don't regret my decision to go first class with FG. I would have had a much harder time, IMO, with canvas in the door areas where adjustments to fit were needed; with FG I was able to laminate extra plies on and still have genuine hard points for the hinges. I don't think that would have worked the same way in canvas.

Hind sight is 20/20 and we don't know what we don't know. I have said all along that this is a learning experience.

GPW, I realize that you are heavily biased to the PMF method, but maybe a, "Hey glad you're back", or a, "that's looking better now, KC", would have been more in the spirit of this forum. Regardless, thanks for staying tuned in.

[bonnie]

I’m glad you’re back!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GPW]

KC, Of course we're glad your back ... It''s just we've gotten a lot older whilst awaiting the finish ...
A long time ago we followed the adventure of Glassice and saw all the problems he faced with fiberglass over foam . I don't think he ever finished it ...he just disappeared... the reason we made the original suggestion , hoping to save you much trouble , expense , and frustration ... Wasn't trying to be snarky , but Helpful ... But we all choose our own way eh ?
The only thing I'm saying now is GOOD LUCK , and "get it done !!!"

[KCStudly]

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Thank you Bonnie, it is good to be making progress. I hope I can keep something going during my normal work weeks.

This is going to sound a little familiar. Today I washed amine... then did a little research on compatible guide coats while letting the surface dry well (after wiping with paper shop towels). I used the small block with coarse sander belt scrap to dig down and blend any low spots that didn't have well feathered edges. Next I splattered a guide coat of primer from a spray bomb held way up high, like 3 ft above the surface. Let that flash off a bit, and then hit it all with the jitter bug again (my longest session so far, creating lots of fine sanding dust). The first piece of sandpaper I had applied to the board and was still using started to clog up from the primer (which was mentioned in my research), but a fresh strip of 80 grit settled that problem and I was able to knock it all, mostly, down pretty well.

This left only some areas around the galley wall edge in way of the hatch, around the light recesses (details that I had purposely left until the "end"), and a couple of well defined areas in the field that still needed attention.

Vacuumed sanding dust, wiped with paper shop towels and acetone, and mixed another 2 pump batch of thick 410 fairing filler. This pure batch (i.e. no 403 filler) went on well, better than Bondo, and with a better working time. At first I just used the stir stick to get it out of the mixing cup and daub it on in the general areas of interest in approximate amounts, then I struck the bigger areas with the 12 inch knife. Worked really well, and was easier to get right than the looser mixture (should sand easier, too). Then I used the 6 inch knife to work the smaller areas near the light recesses and the edge of the galley wall.

That only went so far, so I mixed up another 1 pump batch and did pick up of most of the rest of it. As the areas of interest are now more defined and separated, and with the thicker mix, I wasn't so prone to messing up one area when working the next.

There were still some small areas needing filler along the edge of the door opening and in the transition to the door header and footer, but I will get those when I mix up a larger batch and move on to the front area of this, the street side wall.

I think after one more round of amine wash, jitter bug and detail sanding, this, the larger rear area of the street side wall will be ready for sealer coats of neat epoxy, which I will do with the whole wall when the front and door area are brought up to this same level of fairness. Not perfectly flat, but not lumpy bumpy, either.

I had thought that I might test out the Total Boat fairing filler on the tongue box or fridge lid today, but after 4 hrs with fewer rest breaks, I was ready to call it quits for the day. I think I forgot to mention that the Total Boat is supposed to cure to a sandable state in just a couple to three hours, whereas the West System slow can still sand into little worms the next day (maybe 12-18 hrs later).

All in all, it was a good day, and I was buoyed by the improvement in my results and technique development.

On the next section I will take Michael/Atomic77's advice, lay the first coat of fairing filler on thicker, and hopefully eliminate one or two iterations of the process, maybe even juggle more of the surfaces at the same time and try to advance through this aspect of the process more quickly. Still need to fair: the front section of the street side wall and door header/footer; the front wall, locker kick out, and front roof radius; the curb side wall; the hatch; the tongue box and fridge lid. The majority of the roof has been filled, but needs to be groomed over with the jitter bug (I'm calling the long file a jitter bug, but that isn't actually correct, a jitter bug is more like an oscillating pneumatic palm sander, than a long board... I'm still going to call it a jitter bug to make a distinction between the manual long boards and not have to type "pneumatic long board" every time I mention it).

A note on the paper shop towels. I had to restock today and grabbed the lint free variety. They were a buck or so more than the standard version I have been using, but had more in a box. Although they do seam to be lint free compared to the regular paper towels, they are completely annoying to pull out of the box (the strengthening fibers are too strong and they don't tear naturally at the perforations using one hand); and they are way less absorbent than the regular variety.

[KCStudly]

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Yesterday. Well the back part of the wall wasn't as well finished as I had thought, still quite a few low spots.

Another round of washing amine; jitter bug; vacuum; and acetone wiping/de-greasing.

Rather than just do a few smaller areas, I prepped the front portion and around the door and set up to do a larger 5 pump batch.

The 410 filler wasn't the best at filling the blister repair drill holes... they kept pillowing up, again suggesting some sort of gassing or heat expansion, so when sanded back there would still be a hole. And there was a blister repair on the front area, too (still the street side, toward the front about level with the start of the roof radius). So I mixed up a small two half inch worms of 3 min epoxy with the 403 structural filler and pressed that down in the holes. This was thick enough and sticky enough that it did not pillow out, and only took a short time to harden enough to sand fair.

Focused application of the larger batch of 410 on the front section, laying it on thicker this time (maybe 1/8 inch max... probably less) not trying to scrape down to the weave. Whatever was left over I stretched out hitting most all of the areas on the rear section of the wall that still needed some pickup.

Today, Happy Easter to all of my TNTTT family and friends! Taking Bill, Chris and Karl to a nice Easter dinner buffet at Fresh Salt. I think mom would approve.