Wiring in 1950's house

[Tom&Shelly]

This is definitely off-topic for a teardrop forum, but Shelly and I are spending the summer with my Mom in my childhood home, that my Dad contracted and had built in 1959. Between trips, we're doing some fix-ups and improvements, partly for our improved comfort, partly to increase the appeal for the day when we have to sell the house.

It turns out, this house was wired with 3 wires to each outlet, with the predecessor to Romex. In other words, no conduit, but a true ground wire to every box. However, all of the outlets, except those added or replaced later, were two pronged. Fundamental question is, why is that? At that point, it would seem like they might as well have put three prong outlets in.

Another fact: At some point my Dad had all of the original outlets replaced with a type that swiveled so we (as kids) couldn't put a key in a socket and electrocute ourselves. (By the time I was a teenager, I found other ways to do it ) Mom thinks he may have contracted out the job, which makes sense to me, because if he did it himself the original outlets would be in a box in the basement somewhere, and I never saw them. So, it's slightly possible the original outlets were three pronged.

Anyway, does anyone know why, when they went to the expense of running a cable with ground wire, they stopped at the last step and only put in two pronged outlets? Granted, most devices only had two pronged plugs in those days. Now, there are "cheaters" on designated outlets so we can plug in the vacuum cleaner. (BTW, the center screw is grounded, so they are all good--I made sure they were screwed in correctly.)

I'm thinking of replacing all of the two pronged outlets, at least in rooms we're using for our work spaces, with modern three pronged ones. I could even spring for the modern version of the safety outlets. Anyone see a down side?

We're a few days from our next camping trip, so I'm bored and any and all replies welcome!

Tom

[Tom&Shelly]

Oh! I'll add that it is all copper wiring in this old house. Absolutely no knob & tube. The cable has a cloth outer cover, but the black and white wires have plastic sheathing, just like modern Romex. It's a plaster house, so getting back into the walls to replace wires would be problematic (not going to happen on my watch! The next owners can do what they think best.)

At some point after Dad passed, Mom had some of the wiring on the lower floors improved, and the guy replaced the electrical box (all circuit breakers--never were fuses).

Tom

[tony.latham]

I don't think three-pronged outlets were written into the code until the '60s. The bigger mystery is why it was wired with a three-wire cable way-back-when? Is it 16 AWG or 14?

Tony

[Tom&Shelly]

The several circuits I've worked on this Summer are 14 gauge. (Hope they didn't use 16 anywhere, the breaker box has all 15 and 20 amp breakers, and I assume the electrician who put it in knew what was going on.) He improved the kitchen wiring, so hopefully that is 12 gauge per modern code (if it wasn't originally). If he ran wires behind the plaster though, I don't know how.

BTW, he did do something to the plaster walls in the living room and added paneling, per Mom's request (and to Shelly's dismay), so he may have replaced some wires there. They are all now three pronged outlets.

Tom

[bdosborn]

It looks like grounded NM *might* have been a requirement in 1958 but grounded receptacles throughout weren't required until 1975. There were a few areas that grounded receptacles were required in 1959.

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/when-were-ground-wires-1st-required.61410/

My guess is the EC was using what he had on hand rather than it being required. Or your Dad was a forward thinker. I'd also guess there are a bunch of spots where the neutral and ground wires are tied together in her house.

Bruce

[Tom&Shelly]

It looks like grounded NM *might* have been a requirement in 1958 but grounded receptacles throughout weren't required until 1975. There were a few areas that grounded receptacles were required in 1959.

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/when-were-ground-wires-1st-required.61410/

My guess is the EC was using what he had on hand rather than it being required. Or your Dad was a forward thinker. I'd also guess there are a bunch of spots where the neutral and ground wires are tied together in her house.

Bruce

Interesting thread; thank you Bruce!

My Dad did have a few good forward thoughts on the house, and was angry about a few things (we discovered later) that he wanted done but weren't. (I re-shingled the roof 20 years after it was built and that's when we discovered they never put down the felt paper he'd asked them to use.) I don't know if he specifically asked for three wire cable.

I do remember he got bit once while rewiring a light circuit. He had turned off the switch instead of the breaker, and (mistakenly) attributed the shock to 55 volts because he thought the ground was half-way between the line and neutral voltage. He went through the Navy radio technician school in WWII, later got a degree in physics, so he knew his stuff, but was never trained in home wiring. Now I really wish I could remember which light he was working on so I could look closely to figure out what happened and fix it!

It's also possible there are switch boxes around here that have more than one circuit going to them. (Shelly and I discovered a situation like that in a 1983 house we renovated down in Albuquerque.)

The thought about the neutral and ground being tied together everywhere but the power entrance is a scary one! I am not aware of any cases of that from the electrical boxes I've opened. (I only heard about that "practice" from Mike Holt's website a few years ago.) I will keep an eye out for it!

Tom

[Tom&Shelly]

Incidentally, there was one three prong outlet in the garage that was there originally. (The electrician Mom hired replaced it with a new one for some reason.) So they did have them in 1959, even though the code didn't require them. (It may have required them in the garage, with the concrete floor.)

The basement originally had no outlets. My folks solved that problem by using the screw base adapters in the light sockets in the ceiling, which of course were two pronged. We did have a three pronged outlet on the work bench down there. Dad (or someone) tied that ground to a copper water pipe, so it isn't exactly tied to neutral at the power entrance either. It's still there, but won't be by the time we sell the house!

And, of course, there were no outlets outside the house. I complained a few times, but Dad said there was no reason for them. I guess others agreed with me, because now that's code. (I also remember telling my Dad we needed pocket TV's and radio telephones we could all carry with us, at which he scoffed! For the record, I now realize Dad was right, and the rest of the world is wrong about those two ideas! )

In the 70's Dad built a game room in part of the basement, and we did wire in three prong outlets. I think we tied them to the living room wiring. That's where I learned about wire nuts. I believe we did everything correctly on that project.

Tom

[Tom&Shelly]

So this was one of our "improvement" projects this Summer. The bathrooms originally had florescent lights over the sinks. These had a 2 prong outlet included (worked with our razors in the 70's, not with Shelly's hairdryer today), as well as a built in switch, which Mom could never reach. There were no junction boxes behind the lights, they just ran the pre-Romex cable into the light fixture which was screwed to the lath behind the plaster. At some point, when I was a teenager, we couldn't find the "starters" for the florescent light anymore, so, in the upstairs bath, I added a momentary toggle switch from Dad's junk box, and that's how we used that light until last week.

BTW, Shelly can't believe there were florescent lights. As far as I remember though, my sister's makeup never suffered from the pale light. Maybe she put it on in her bedroom.

So we finally replaced the fixture in the upstairs bath with a modern LED light



I'm not particularly proud of this job, but I'm not going to break into the plaster under any circumstance! With that established, the surface mount J box was required. They no longer seem to make lights with switches and outlets, so I used the surface mount hardware carried at Lowes, and put the switch where Mom can reach it. Before we go home, Shelly and I plan to repaint the bathroom, being careful to patch and sand so one can't see where the old fixture was.

it is functional and safe. Now that I see the surface mount hardware, I'm realizing there are better looking options available. But we'll leave that for the next owners to decide on.

Tom

[tony.latham]

(Hope they didn't use 16 anywhere...

I think that was common back then. Your dad must have been laser-smart.

Tony

[JasenC]

Are they metal boxes and was the ground hooked to them.

As others said, that's border line of the code change period. Most of my electricians would have suggested that if they saw the code change coming. A few bucks in material cost and you can upgrade to the more expansive receptacles later if you want.

[Tom&Shelly]

Are they metal boxes and was the ground hooked to them.

As others said, that's border line of the code change period. Most of my electricians would have suggested that if they saw the code change coming. A few bucks in material cost and you can upgrade to the more expansive receptacles later if you want.

Oh yes, all metal, and the ground wire seems to be connected. Except there weren't always boxes where we'd put them today, like behind the bathroom lights for example.

Probably less than 30 outlets that need to be changed at this point, so about $30-40. Seems worthwhile just for the convenience for the time we have left in the house. Turns out they are all the modern equivalent of the safety outlets now, with an internal shutter keeping paperclips and keys out (in case the next owner plans on raising little kids here), so we're not losing that protection.

I'm also thinking it may be worthwhile to replace all the circuit breakers with CFGI breakers. When the electrician redid the CB box ten years ago he brought it up to code by using that type for the bathrooms, garage, and basement, though I'll have to check and see if he missed our game room tap off of the living room circuit.

I'm guessing none of this will improve the resale value much though. But an electrical fire would be so bad no matter what the circumstances!

Tom

[QueticoBill]

I grew up in a house with those early versions of tamper proof receptacles, where the face of each outlet rotated to allow plug to be pushed in. I don't think that style was produced with a ground. For the life of me, I can't find a picture on line but I recall they were embossed with an arrow showing direction and that the holes were vertical when not in use. They also didn't work well when painted, as all of them were in my parents house.

[Tom&Shelly]

I grew up in a house with those early versions of tamper proof receptacles, where the face of each outlet rotated to allow plug to be pushed in. I don't think that style was produced with a ground. For the life of me, I can't find a picture on line but I recall they were embossed with an arrow showing direction and that the holes were vertical when not in use. They also didn't work well when painted, as all of them were in my parents house.

Cool! In a TNTTT exclusive here is (maybe) the first picture of one of those receptacles on the innerwebs!



Incidentally, they don't look it, but they are polarized (I just checked.) After 60 years, I had to manually rotate the covers back to the unoccupied position. Although the springs are there, they are rusty. This one was in my room. Evidently, my Dad did my sister's room later, as the outlets there didn't have the pretty blue in the embossment.

I think you are right Bill, they didn't have a grounded version. Since the ground blade is a little longer than the other two, that wouldn't have worked. The modern equivalent, which we may actually have installed in our tear--I'll have to look--has "TR" printed on it.

https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Fire-causes-and-risks/Top-fire-causes/Electrical/Tamper-resistant-electrical-receptacles

Curiously, they say these have been required since 2008, but I don't recall buying them for the house we renovated in 2014-16. Didn't know about them, so HD and Lowes didn't make a big deal about it in their electrical aisle.

Tom

[bdosborn]

Curiously, they say these have been required since 2008, but I don't recall buying them for the house we renovated in 2014-16.

They weren't required everywhere at first, only in specific areas like pediatric waiting rooms. They were changed to throughout in residential construction a couple of code cycles ago. They're a PITA if you ask me....


Bruce

[tony.latham]

the first picture of one of those receptacles...

I have never seen one of those... gawd.

When we built our shop, I asked the electrician if I could install the outlets to save some money. No problem. When the inspector looked at them, he was befuddled with the outlets since they were not the non-tamper type. (sh**, this is a shop... a man cave...) I informed him I was the fella that installed them --I did this to keep our electrician outta trouble. Wrong answer. He fined me $80, made me get a non-commercial license, and I replaced all 44 outlets with the frigging tamper-resistant outlets.

I'm tempted to reinstall the original outlets. The non-tamper outlets are a pain. I might try jamming a screwdriver in one just to torture it. Learn it up.



Tony