Electrical plans - Group review please

Anything electric, AC or DC

Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:54 pm

featherliteCT1 wrote:How do we know the switch is DC rated?


The specs on the switch do not specify AC or DC Simly a voltage and amperage that are within my circuit limits.
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:04 pm

H.A. wrote:1, The positive 12V powering the battery monitor should be fused.

Roger that!

H.A. wrote:2, Be sure none of the 12V appliances are self grounding. Or if they are be sure their mountings are isolated from chassis.
If one of those appliances were self grounding, your battery cutoff is effectively bypassed.


There will be no installed appliances. We are simple folks. But will keep that in mind should we install something that does not just plug in.

H.A. wrote:Were I building this and ignoring for now the merits or not of the rotary switch...
I'd not have battery cutoff on the negative. Putting instead between battery and positive busbar.
Or more likely, I'd simply use the main battery circuitbreaker as the battery cutoff.


I have heard advice to the opposite on where the cutoff should be. I think I already changed it from the positive to the negative at one point. Clearly more research is needed. Also, the cutoff is external on the tongue box. Seemed a good place for it for a quick way to shut off the trailer. The main breaker will be in the box, behind a lock.

H.A. wrote:The 12V supply for battery monitor, I probably put it on the load side of battery cutout also.


I am not sure what you mean by this. Clarify please. :thinking:

BLTillson wrote:Greetings and good morning, :)

My trailer project is reaching a critical phase where planning and drawings are transformed into solid reality. It is certainly exciting but a bit scary to delve into a project with so many aspects that have to be right for it to be useful, comfortable and safe. Before I start stringing wires and before my time to return items elapses I wanted to post my current and hopefully my final electrical schematic for the group to review for errors and misunderstandings. I do understand that there are many ways to make this work. I am looking for outright errors or potential dangers in effectiveness at this point. Thank you all.

Main Electrical 2.png
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby featherliteCT1 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:07 pm

BLTillson wrote:
featherliteCT1 wrote:How do we know the switch is DC rated?


The specs on the switch do not specify AC or DC Simly a voltage and amperage that are within my circuit limits.


Regula generalis: si nulla DC specificatio, non DC aestimatio :NC
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby H.A. » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:03 pm

BLTillson wrote:There will be no installed appliances. We are simple folks.
Strange to say that when the drawing clearly shows about 15 installed appliances.
Fwiw,
In context of electrical subjects.
An "appliance" is any electrical doohickey whats primary job is consume electric current to do its primary job.
Lamps, fans, pumps, etc. are example of appliances.
A "device" is any electrical doohicky whats' primary job is to control electrical current. Fuses, relays, switches, lamp sockets, etc. are examples of a device.
Last edited by H.A. on Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:21 pm

H.A. wrote:
BLTillson wrote:There will be no installed appliances. We are simple folks.
Strange to say that when the drawing clearly shows about 15 installed appliances.
Fwiw,
In context of electrical subjects.
An "appliance" is any electrical doohickey whats primary job is consume electric current to do its primary job.
Lamps, fans, pumps, etc. are example of appliances.
A "device" is any electrical doohicky whats' primary job is to control electrical current. Fuses, switches, lamp sockets, etc. are examples of a device.


OK, OK, I meant, no toaster, fridge, microwave, emergency teleporter. All the lights and switches socket pumps and other doohickies will be not be self grounding but have a ground wire leading to a grounding bus. :D
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:53 am

featherliteCT1 wrote:
BLTillson wrote:
featherliteCT1 wrote:How do we know the switch is DC rated?


The specs on the switch do not specify AC or DC Simly a voltage and amperage that are within my circuit limits.


Regula generalis: si nulla DC specificatio, non DC aestimatio :NC


I will be reviewing this before installing. Thank you for your concern. (and for the latin :lol: )
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:02 am

Thank you all for your tips, suggestions and opinions. :thumbsup: I am focusing on the woodworking aspect of the project for a while. When I return to electrical in about a week I will look over all the information and make sure I have examined it all for possible changes I need to make.

I am really enjoying having this community to help along the arduous journey of bringing this project to life. :D
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:21 pm

H.A. wrote:1, The positive 12V powering the battery monitor should be fused.



Are you talking about here?

See next post. I am asking about the positive connection for the power to the shunt.
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:34 pm

Me again,

I have been looking over the comments you all made and making some changes to the drawing. I made the change to put the shunt after the cutoff switch. That will completely isolate the battery when in the off position. Now, as I have been reviewing this I was wondering if I needed fuses in the locations illustrated in the drawing part.

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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby Tom&Shelly » Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:55 pm

I'd move the breaker so it covers the battery from any direction, making that fuse unnecessary. Physically right on or next to the battery connector. I'd have it electrically before (and in series with) your battery cutoff switch. The purpose is to keep from creating a dead short across the battery in case a wire's insulation is cut and makes contact with a sharp metal edge, or accidental mis-connection somewhere, etc.

You may want to check your solar charge controller. Mine warns not to connect to the solar panels with the battery disconnected. Your selector switch essentially does that, as would a (blown) fuse where you are indicating. My solution was to not use a selector switch at all, but simply wire them all together. I think Tony has a second battery switch on the alternator line, so he doesn't charge from the tow vehicle unless he wants to. When you think about it, the battery holds that side to about 12 volts, so the converter and charge controller shouldn't be hurting each other.

I didn't see a need for a fuse on the converter output, but it shouldn't hurt anything.

Nit-picking detail, but the convention for batteries in circuit diagrams is that the long plate is the + side and the short plate is the - side. (Confused me for a moment, but you know what you mean.)

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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby featherliteCT1 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:55 pm

I admire your tenacity. :thumbsup:

The manual for your shunt should specify the fuse for the pos wire connecting the shunt to the pos bus bar. My Victron shunt calls for a slow blow, glass inline 1 Amp fuse whereas my Trimetric shunt calls for a fast blow, glass inline 1 amp fuse.

The schematics for the professionally installed Victron products call for, not only an appropriately sized over current protection ("OCP") device at the pos terminal of the battery, but also appropriately sized OCP devices on the pos wires fed from all charging sources, at the pos bus bar, including from solar charge controllers, the DC to DC alternator chargers, and shore power chargers.

Also, it is recommended that an appropriately sized OCP device be installed on the pos wire feeding the invertor, again at the pos bus bar.

From what I see, you do not have pos or neg bus bars, which makes wiring easier and tidy. I would use appropriately sized bus bars.

I think your purple arrows properly show wires that should be fused.

Hope this helps.

PS: an OCP would be a DC fuse or DC breaker.
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:38 pm

featherliteCT1 wrote:I admire your tenacity. :thumbsup:


Thank you for that! I want to get this right.

featherliteCT1 wrote:From what I see, you do not have pos or neg bus bars, which makes wiring easier and tidy. I would use appropriately sized bus bars.


This is the logical drawing. I will be transferring this to a wiring diagram when it has met the stringent approval of the community. I am taking into account the lengths of the wires when I calculate the fuses. Still need to finish up that part.

I will be reviewing your other comments and that of the other responders and will let you know if I need clarification.
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby BLTillson » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:46 pm

Tom&Shelly wrote:You may want to check your solar charge controller. Mine warns not to connect to the solar panels with the battery disconnected. Your selector switch essentially does that, as would a (blown) fuse where you are indicating. My solution was to not use a selector switch at all, but simply wire them all together. I think Tony has a second battery switch on the alternator line, so he doesn't charge from the tow vehicle unless he wants to. When you think about it, the battery holds that side to about 12 volts, so the converter and charge controller shouldn't be hurting each other.


Mine warns of that as well. The rotary charge selector switch is a multi-switch, (best way I can describe it.) Dual poles for each position. So, I theoretically should be able to have the solar controller completely isolated when the switch is rotated off of the solar charging by disconnecting from both input and output simultaneous. Should work, right? :thinking:


Tom&Shelly wrote:Nit-picking detail, but the convention for batteries in circuit diagrams is that the long plate is the + side and the short plate is the - side. (Confused me for a moment, but you know what you mean.)


Nit-picking accepted. :thumbsup: When I repost the updated schematic you will see. 8)
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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby Tom&Shelly » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:55 pm

BLTillson wrote:
Tom&Shelly wrote:You may want to check your solar charge controller. Mine warns not to connect to the solar panels with the battery disconnected. Your selector switch essentially does that, as would a (blown) fuse where you are indicating. My solution was to not use a selector switch at all, but simply wire them all together. I think Tony has a second battery switch on the alternator line, so he doesn't charge from the tow vehicle unless he wants to. When you think about it, the battery holds that side to about 12 volts, so the converter and charge controller shouldn't be hurting each other.


Mine warns of that as well. The rotary charge selector switch is a multi-switch, (best way I can describe it.) Dual poles for each position. So, I theoretically should be able to have the solar controller completely isolated when the switch is rotated off of the solar charging by disconnecting from both input and output simultaneous. Should work, right? :thinking:


Ah yes, I missed the note in your schematic. Then the concern is whether one part of the switch breaks (opens contact) slightly before the other--maybe just a matter of milli-seconds--when you turn the switch, and how critical is that really to the charge controller? I don't know the answer to that. It might be worth a call to the charge controller manufacturer. :thinking:

BTW, some solar vendors show a fuse between the solar panels and controller. I suspect that is in case something else gets plugged in where the panels should be, or induced current from a nearby lightning strike, or something like that. I decided not to do that in the end, but it can't hurt.

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Re: Electrical plans - Group review please

Postby featherliteCT1 » Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:40 am

BTW, some solar vendors show a fuse between the solar panels and controller.


True, however, if three or more panels are combined and wired in parallel, a fuse is required at the position just before the wires are combined, at the combiner box.

The fuse size is specified on the panel tag as "Max Series Fuse Rating". Some of my 100 Watt panels say 15 amp and some say 10 amp,

Single panels, two panels combined in parallel, and any number of panels combined in series do not need to be fused. At least according to the National Electric Code, NEC 690.9 (A), which code technically does not apply to trailers, but is ordinarily followed by professional installers.

However, I think a case can be made to fuse all panels regardless of how wired, in order to protect panel wiring from the battery if the controller fails. Also, a fuse is a nice disconnect for testing purposes. And so, I fuse all my panels.
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