Nice Political Honesty

[Joseph]

Rather than hijack Ira’s thread, I’ll start one of my own. How about an open and honest admission of what you believe? I'll start.

As a conservative/libertarian I agree with Robert Heinlein – “The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” I am of the latter persuasion and believe, among other things:

- Individuals have rights.

- All individuals have the same rights under the Constitution.

- Groups may wield political power or influence, but they do not have rights. Their members have exactly the same individual rights as everyone else.

- Your rights are not granted you by the Constitution nor are they given you by the government. They are acknowledged by the Constitution and the government is tasked with protecting them.

- Money belongs to the people who earn it and government does not have the right to redistribute it.

- Just because something is a good idea doesn't mean that the government should do it.

- There may be more than one solution to any given social problem, and solutions may vary from locality to locality.

The Constitution is indeed a “living document” (as opposed to a dead one), but to change it requires the Constitutional Amendment process, not the opinion of a judge.

-The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. A crèche or a Star of David on the lawn at City Hall does NOT establish a state religion. The Ten Commandments at the County Courthouse does NOT establish a state religion.

- The 2nd Amendment means what it says. You can’t define “the people” one way (as individuals) in the rest of the Constitution and define it otherwise (as a collective) in the 2nd Amendment. And because it refers to a "well regulated militia," it means that it's intended for the defense of self, community and country - it has nothing to do with hunting.

-The 10th Amendment means what it says - that Congress is limited in power to what is specifically allowed it in the Constitution: all other powers belong to the states or to the people.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but as the major audit in which I must participate draws near, I can only hope I'll have time to post them!

Joseph

[SteveH]

Right On, Joseph!

[Ira]

I believe that there's really no such thing as a balance of power among the three branches. I believe Congress holds ALL of the power.

Regardless of what a Judge says in interpreting the Constitution/law, congress simply has to change the law, the wording of the law, the intent of the law, and garner enought votes to override any possible veto.

I also believe that for anyone's interpretation of the Constitution, there's always an equal, credible, opposing argument.

Maybe they wrote it that way on purpose.

I also believe that Gore was nuts to pick Lieberman as a running mate, and that it cost him the election. We're not ready for that kind of a Jewish vice president:

Too Jewish. Super-Jewish. Jew-squared.

[Joseph]

Regardless of what a Judge says in interpreting the Constitution/law, congress simply has to change the law, the wording of the law, the intent of the law, and garner enought votes to override any possible veto.

You're quite right about laws, but the process for amending the Constitution is a little more involved, don't you think? As I've said beore, that's why liberals try to get around it by "interpretation" - they know the vast majority of people in this country wouldn't stand for it and it would serve as an embarrasing repudiation of liberal ideology.

Joseph

[madjack]

Becoming ploitically aware in the late 50's early 60's, a Democrat was JFK and a Republican was Tricky Dick...now it seems extremism rules both parties to the point that most of their constituencies are no longer served by the parties leadship...never before in our recent times has this country needed a strong and vialble 3rd political party as it does at present.

I was strongly influenced by the hippie/yippie movement of the late 60's but those beliefs though still held, have been severely tempered by head on crashes with real world geopolitik.

I have never voted Republican and only voted Democrat once more than Libertarian...in all political tests I have taken, I have always scored as a slightly left of center Libertarian.

I would have to say that I am in almost complete agreement with Joseph and also with Ira in the sense that Congress is supposed to be wherein the power of the people lay...the power that is supposed to the stongest in the land. The President is SUPPOSED to represent the will of the majority and the Judicial branch is supposed to keep a rein on both of those powers. It is the Judicials OBLIGATION to examine the laws passed by Congress to see if they meet Constitutional muster. If there is continued disagreement between the Judicial and Congressional branchs of Government as to what constitutes that "muster", there is the Constitutional Amendment process that allows the People to decide the issue......

whew.........way to early in the morn to be having all these serious thought...latter..............

madjack

[Joseph]

...in all political tests I have taken, I have always scored as a slightly left of center Libertarian.

I came across something the other day that said Libertarians were "social liberals and fiscal conservatives." What a load of crap! There can be no such ideology, for how, as a fiscal conservative, can one fund one's socially liberal programs?

Personally, I don't believe politics is linear. I see it as circular, like the face of a clock, with total anarchy at 12:00 and a totalitarian dictatorship at 6:00. At 3:00 is a democratic republic and at 9:00 is a socialist republic. I find myself somewhere around 1:30.

Joseph

[Joseph]

And Ira - granted you provided specific examples of what comes out of your ideology, but what I'd really like to see are those core beliefs which define you as a Liberal.

Joseph

[madjack]

...in all political tests I have taken, I have always scored as a slightly left of center Libertarian.

I came across something the other day that said Libertarians were "social liberals and fiscal conservatives." What a load of crap! There can be no such ideology, for how, as a fiscal conservative, can one fund one's socially liberal programs?

Personally, I don't believe politics is linear. I see it as circular, like the face of a clock, with total anarchy at 12:00 and a totalitarian dictatorship at 6:00. At 3:00 is a democratic republic and at 9:00 is a socialist republic. I find myself somewhere around 1:30.

Joseph

Joseph, help me understand what you are saying...at the start of this thread, you called yourself a conservative libertarian...are you now saying there is no such thing as a libertarian...

To me, Libertarian principles are what this country was founded on...which to me, says that government should be small, unobtrusive (as best it may) and stay out of peoples lives, leaving them to live as they may as long as don't infringe physically upon others...kind of a Golden Rule sort of thing...
madjack

[Dave Bob]

I'm not very P.C. so here goes.......

What I beleive is that MOST people get their news and form opinions from sound bites on the national news, be it CNN, MSNBC, FOX, ect.

I belive that READING about STUDYING and RESEARCHING issues is something MOST people do not do. We now have at our disposal one of the the most valuable assets there is, the internet. Local, national, foregin, religious - news in all flavors and views. READ Form YOUR OWN views.

Any one here that was around when the Constitution was written raise there hands..... Read it and get on with your lives, you can debate and interpret what was intended till the cows come home, but you can only GUESS what they intended. Different times different thought processes.

I am conservitive to the core, but I arrived there not by being a sheep, but by READING, STUDYING and RESEARCHING issues for myself.

Do I agree with Republican views all the time, NO! But I am more prone to conservitive ideas than not.

I believe that to many people do not want to take responsibility for thier own actions. Sue Sue Sue, America has more lawsuits than you can shake a stick at. That fast food chain made me fat, or something equally as ridiculous. There are way to many frivolus lawsuits.

And I believe we need to kill all the lawyers!! Just joking about that last one, my youngest son is studing to become one. Do we need lawyers, sure we do (just not so damn many of them).

Mostly I believe in the USA, I still think it is the best place on earth.

My opinions are mine, you are intitled to yours. Thats what make this country so great.


Dave

[Joseph]

Joseph, help me understand what you are saying...at the start of this thread, you called yourself a conservative libertarian...

You left out the slash - "conservative/libertarian." I know the terms are not interchangeable, but IMHO they're pretty darn close. I normally call myself a conservative, but I am in fact a libertarian. Or as I often tell people - from my political perspective, Rush Limbaugh is a liberal.

are you now saying there is no such thing as a libertarian...

Not at all. I'm saying that "social liberal and fiscal conservative" does not define Libertarianism. Those two ideologies are mutually exclusive but they are often brought together by politicians who want to appear "compassionate" without threatening your wallet.

The libertarian pricnicples you cite are the the very ones I hold. Which is why I find it odd that you would vote Democrat - the party that is consistantly the most intrusive...

Cthulhu for President! Why vote for the lesser of two evils?!

Joseph

[Nitetimes]

To me, Libertarian principles are what this country was founded on...which to me, says that government should be small, unobtrusive (as best it may) and stay out of peoples lives, leaving them to live as they may as long as don't infringe physically upon others...kind of a Golden Rule sort of thing...
madjack

For now all I'm gonna say is that was very well said.
If the government was what it was supposed to be.......

[Joseph]

Any one here that was around when the Constitution was written raise there hands..... Read it and get on with your lives, you can debate and interpret what was intended till the cows come home, but you can only GUESS what they intended. Different times different thought processes.

Yes, but every framer of that document left behind very clear records of their thoughts at the time. We don't have to guess - by following the practice of READING, STUDYING and RESEARCHING which you recommend, we know.

Do I agree with Republican views all the time, NO! But I am more prone to conservitive ideas than not.

Would to God that the Republicans were!

I believe that to many people do not want to take responsibility for thier own actions. Sue Sue Sue, America has more lawsuits than you can shake a stick at. That fast food chain made me fat, or something equally as ridiculous. There are way to many frivolus lawsuits.

I read somewhere that the USA has 5% of the world's population and 75% of the world's lawyers. Does that give you a clue as to why?

Mostly I believe in the USA, I still think it is the best place on earth.

No "mostly" about it for me.

Joseph

[madjack]

Joseph, very much to my dismay, I often find that voting for President is choice of the lesser of two evils or a protest vote...probably because of my early Democrat/liberal beliefs, I have never found a Republican to be the lesser of the two evils...unfortunately, that also holds true with the Democratic choices which results in my Libertarian voting as a protest vote....Can I say, I am sick to death of both parties leadership

...a couple of more thoughts...

I have always been a voracious reader...I'll read almost anything...before the internet, I would seek out news sources from both sides...now, I rarely watch network news for anything truly substantive but rather rely on news sources such a Google News, Yahoo News and the like and read sources from around the world on all sides of a question to gain as many facts as possible on any particular question/matter...never rely on one side to give a complete and accurate picture of events

Why did I vote for Clinton twice...because the Republicans had (or where going to) have control of both houses of Congress and any 50+yr old man who can get a BJ from a bouncy early 20yr old while enjoying pizza and a good cigar is OK in my book...maybe stupid but still OK
madjack

[Steve_Cox]

Rather than hijack Ira’s thread, I’ll start one of my own. How about an open and honest admission of what you believe? I'll start.

A
Joseph

Joseph,

Good topic. I'm not going to be a part of the debate, don't have the time today to read it, nor the time to respond, and quite frankly it wouldn't have much effect on my beliefs anyway.

I believe it is time in our country for a radical change, the direction we are heading won't last. The world domination by multi-national corporations is destroying our nation and it is time for a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community, a system that is for the people.

[madjack]

To me, Libertarian principles are what this country was founded on...which to me, says that government should be small, unobtrusive (as best it may) and stay out of peoples lives, leaving them to live as they may as long as don't infringe physically upon others...kind of a Golden Rule sort of thing...
madjack

For now all I'm gonna say is that was very well said.
If the government was what it was supposed to be.......

unfortunately, what the government is supposed to be versus what it has become is the reason that the Civil War was fought..alll the other reasons were mere window dressing and spin to sell it to the unsuspecting masses (a Southern view)
madjack