Nice Political Honesty

[madjack]

I believe it is time in our country for a radical change, the direction we are heading won't last. The world domination by multi-national corporations is destroying our nation and it is time for a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community, a system that is for the people.

Steve, a grand Utopian vision if ever I saw one...and one I would love to see come about. However, with the present real world geo-politik, it will never come about without a social upheaval the likes of which the world has never seen before, An upheaval which would leave a vastly reduced world poulation either in a basically isolated agrarian society or more likely a severly controlled facist one...
madjack

[jay]

i find myself about 8:15 - time for another cup of coffee and forum topic change...

[Steve_Cox]

I believe it is time in our country for a radical change, the direction we are heading won't last. The world domination by multi-national corporations is destroying our nation and it is time for a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control -- a non-racist, classless, feminist, socialist society in which people cooperate at work, at home, and in the community, a system that is for the people.

Steve, a grand Utopian vision if ever I saw one...and one I would love to see come about. However, with the present real world geo-politik, it will never come about without a social upheaval the likes of which the world has never seen before, An upheaval which would leave a vastly reduced world poulation either in a basically isolated agrarian society or more likely a severly controlled facist one...
madjack

MJ,

Wish I had the time today to stay and give this the time it deserves. You are absolutely right though. The upheaval in my estimation is going to come anyway. I truly believe that the direction the world is going now, with the NWO hell bent on extracting every dime they can from everything in the world can't possibly last more than another 20 years more or so. I might even live long enough to see it if I'm not turned into Soylent Green a yummy biscuit made by Nabisco.

New Socialism is not mere government ownership, a welfare state, or a repressive bureaucracy. Socialism is a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes, and schools. The production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. Socialism produces a constantly renewed future by not plundering the resources of the earth.
Under capitalist and "Communist" states, people have little control over fundamental areas of their lives. The capitalist system forces workers to sell their abilities and skills to the few who own the workplaces, profit from these workers' labor, and use the government to maintain their privileged position. Under "Communist" states, decisions are made by Communist Party officials, the bureaucracy and the military. The inevitable product of each system is a class society with gross inequality of privileges, a draining of the productive wealth and goods of the society into military purposes, environmental pollution, and war in which workers are compelled to fight other workers.
People across the world need to cast off the systems which oppress them, and build a new world fit for all humanity. Democratic revolutions are needed to dissolve the power now exercised by the few who control great wealth and the government. By revolution I mean a radical and fundamental change in the structure and quality of economic, political, and personal relations. The building of socialism requires widespread understanding and participation, and will not be achieved by an elite working "on behalf of" the people. The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future – to a real radical democracy from below.

Gotta go !

[Nitetimes]

....An upheaval which would leave a vastly reduced world poulation either in a basically isolated agrarian society or more likely a severly controlled facist one...
madjack

Think 'Aeon Flux'.

[Ira]

And Ira - granted you provided specific examples of what comes out of your ideology, but what I'd really like to see are those core beliefs which define you as a Liberal.

I believe that government DOES have a job to protect the weak, feed the hungry, and heal the afflcted.

I DON'T believe in the conservative viewpoint that basically states, "Take care of business (or get out of business's way), and they will prosper, create jobs, and take care of the people."

This is the center of my core belief system that makes me a liberal. Everything I see from the conservative Republican side points in the opposite direction.

I also don't believe, and totally disdain, the visceral neo-con notion that people who are in trouble financially got that way because they "deserved it" and didn't work hard enough.

I believe a Republican is really a Liberal who simply hasn't been out of work for an extended period of time--yet.

[Joseph]

The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future – to a real radical democracy from below.

I don’t think you understand Socialism. What you’ve described is Utopianism. Socialism is a system whereby the means of production (business) is owned and directly controlled by the State. This is only one step baby step to the left of Fascism, which is a system where business is privately owned but directly conrtolled by the State. Both are systems with provide the maximum benefit to the ruling class because they give the most power to the State and the least to the people, despite their pretense to the contrary. Neither systems work for the long haul, first of all because the State has no idea how to run businesses. Secondly, because the true working class wants to keep the fruits of their labors and it's normally the NON-working class that desires Socialism to take from those who work and give it to them.

Socialism can be made to work on a small scale – it’s how the early Church operated. In fact, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” might have been lifted directly from the Bible. Acts 2:44-45 – “And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, as every man had need.” But barring the leadership of a saint, socialism provides no rewards or incentives for those willing to work, and it certainly can NOT be made to work on a national scale. Nor does it truly provide for the worker, because its true modus operandi is “from each according to his ability, to each member of the political ruling class.”

The capitalist system forces workers to sell their abilities and skills to the few who own the workplaces, profit from these workers' labor, and use the government to maintain their privileged position.

Capitalism forces nothing. It offers workers jobs and wages at fair market value, unless of course the government steps in with minimum wage laws. Workers are free to sell their skills and services to the highest bidder wherever they see fit. They may also organize and negotiate higher wages to a certain point. Or they are free to set up their own businesses and risk their own capital in the marketplace. When they do so and become successful, they can then employ others. They may also convince others to risk their capital by investing in their business and share the profits with those investors. Profit is not a dirty word. Unlike Socialism, Capitalism works on a real-world scale because it maximizes the rewards and incentives for human effort and ingenuity. That’s why all the Socialist and formerly-Socialist nations are turning more and more to it.

"If we can prevent the Government from wasting the Labors of the People under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy." -Thomas Jefferson (emphasis mine.)

Joseph

[Joseph]

Why did I vote for Clinton twice...because the Republicans had (or where going to) have control of both houses of Congress

Um... excuse me? Republicans didn't control either House of Congress untill 1995. So care to run that by me again for '92?

and any 50+yr old man who can get a BJ from a bouncy early 20yr old while enjoying pizza and a good cigar is OK in my book...maybe stupid but still OK

Hindsight of course being 20-20 - while getting that BJ and enjoying that pizza and cigar he was ignoring what was going on in the middle-east. 9/11 was the result.

Joseph

[Dewayne_Mellen]

Hindsight of course being 20-20 - while getting that BJ and enjoying that pizza and cigar he was ignoring what was going on in the middle-east. 9/11 was the result.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

[Joseph]

Why did I vote for Clinton twice...because the Republicans had (or where going to) have control of both houses of Congress

Um... excuse me? Republicans didn't control either House of Congress untill 1995. So care to run that by me again for '92?

The real irony is that GHW Bush was thrown out of office because of his word-parsing. He promised "No new taxes" and then raised taxes anyway. When challenged on it, he said something to the effect that these weren't new taxes - they had just raised old ones. So who did we elect? The master word-parser of all time, who couldn't even pin down what the meaning of "is" is.

I remember at the time my primary concern about Clinton was the fact that he was anti-gun, despite his best attempts to appear to the contrary. As it turned out, that was the least of our problems with the man...

Joseph

[Joseph]

Hindsight of course being 20-20 - while getting that BJ and enjoying that pizza and cigar he was ignoring what was going on in the middle-east. 9/11 was the result.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

Which overlooks entirely the fact that he was offered Bin Laden by Sudan and he turned them down.

Joseph

[Joseph]

This is the center of my core belief system that makes me a liberal.

Thanks Ira. I can understand and respect that, even if I disagree with it.

I believe a Republican is really a Liberal who simply hasn't been out of work for an extended period of time--yet.

An interesting observation. I believe it was George McGovern who finallly found himself in the private sector and lamenting all that he had done as a Senator to that sector before he had to go find a real job in it.

My high school English teacher would KILL me for that sentence structure...

What pisses me off to no end about Liberal politicians, both (R) and (D), is that when they set their sights on the White House they have to pretend NOT to be liberal because they know while their politics may get them elected at home, Liberalism does not appeal to the majority of Americans.

Joseph

[Dewayne_Mellen]

Which overlooks entirely the fact that he was offered Bin Laden by Sudan and he turned them down.

Clinton tried to get Sudan to give Bin Laden to the Saudia Arabia. They refused. Clinton lacked a case to indict him in U.S. courts.

http://tinyurl.com/ck9sf

[Joseph]

Clinton tried to get Sudan to give Bin Laden to the Saudia Arabia.

I know. I heard him explain that.

They refused. Clinton lacked a case to indict him in U.S. courts.

I heard him say that too and it is patently absurd. He certainly had a case to lob Tomahawk missles at him. The fact is, he simply didn't want to deal with it and came up with a typical Clinton excuse for not doing so.

Joseph

[Ira]

What pisses me off to no end about Liberal politicians, both (R) and (D), is that when they set their sights on the White House they have to pretend NOT to be liberal because they know while their politics may get them elected at home, Liberalism does not appeal to the majority of Americans.

You see, you really touched on the core of a lot of this with this comment:

Republicans, with Fox's help, launched a remarkably successful campaign to make "liberal" a dirty word.

I won't even go into the personal and political histories of the shmucks who brought us their "Contract With America" in the first place. But how can we forget Gingrich?

What a man--handed his wife the divorce papers while she was in the hospital dying of cancer. And you're criticizing Clinton for a BJ!? No sense of proportion, a typical Republican atttribute.

Republicans just keep harping and harping and harping on the same stupid word:

Liberal.

It is and has been in EVERY political commercial for a Republican attacking a Democrat since that time, never mind the fact that the word by itself means nothing, and that it's simply negative politicking.

"A tax and spend liberal Democrat."

It's not only untrue based on what this administration has been doing, it's so uncreative as to be offensive to the American's people intelligence. We need new ideas, consensus, common sense to put Humpty Dumpty back together again--yet again and again, we hear the same stupid Republican mantra:

A tax and spend liberal democrat.

HECK! REPUBLICANS EVEN USE "LIBERAL" AGAINST EACH OTHER IN THE PRIMARIES! WHEN WILL PEOPLE LEARN TO STOP BEING AFRAID OF A WORD!?

If government has no function but to just get out of the way, who the hell needs one?

And I don't agree with that prospect.

[Nitetimes]

HECK! REPUBLICANS EVEN USE "LIBERAL" AGAINST EACH OTHER IN THE PRIMARIES! WHEN WILL PEOPLE LEARN TO STOP BEING AFRAID OF A WORD!?

It's not the word it's the ideal.

If government has no function but to just get out of the way, who the hell needs one?

Nobody said they had to get out of the way, just stay out of my life and other places where they have no business being. There will always be some type of government. If it did what it was originally intended to do the problems it causes would be fewer.

And I don't agree with that prospect.

Nor do I, but it would make life interesting!!