Partisan political comment prompted by recent news events

[Joseph]

...and we are so arrogant to think we can waltz in there and wave the magic money and freedom(democracy) wands and everyone will just make nice...sheeeesh...ain't it a wonder.........

Mankind did not know democracy on a national scale until we waltzed onto the world stage and invented it. Before that, we lived under kings or emperors, under the direction of whom we had been at each other's throats for millenia.

Yeah, who do we think we are...?

Joseph

[angib]

Israel is faced with the same enemy we're facing – civilian terrorists who IMHO are NOT covered by the Geneva Convention, and who, when captured, should by all rules of war be summarily executed once their interrogation is complete.

I think you would need to get the definition of 'terrorist' worked out pretty tightly if you wanted to get the agreement of the Israelis to such a plan.

In July this year a 60th anniversary celebration was held at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, attended by former prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, to unveil a plaque commemorating the bombing of the hotel, used by the British forces occupying Palestine. The bombing was carried out by a group led by Menachem Begin, who later became prime minister of Israel.

There are some similarities with the bombing 35 years later of the American and French barracks in Beirut, but thankfully that event has not been commemorated in the same way.

Andrew

[madjack]

Jo. when we appeared on the world stage, we were a group from western/christian nations, who had already had things like the magna carter to form a historical context(along with other enlightning ideals, already flowing)...in Iraq, we are trying to force a closed, clan based society into becoming a free democratic one...I for one do not wish to spend the capital in American blood and bucks for a few decades, centuries or millenia to re-educate the populations of those countries....if you think it a good idea, then maybe you should accept a job over there teaching them to be good little followers of the almighty western ideals...it just ain't worth the cost in my little ledger book.......
madjack

[Joseph]

I think you would need to get the definition of 'terrorist' worked out pretty tightly if you wanted to get the agreement of the Israelis to such a plan.

Not at all. Netanyahu and his bunch were terrorists, and they knew the consequences of their actions if they were caught. Had the Geneva Convention existed at the time, it would have availed them naught.

Jo.

One small bit of common courtesy please? My name is Joseph.

Not Jo.

Not Joe.

It's Joseph. Thanks.

...in Iraq, we are trying to force a closed, clan based society into becoming a free democratic one...

No force is required – the Afghani and Iraqi people want it, and they proved it by coming out by the thousands at the risk of their lives to vote in their own form of democracy.

I for one do not wish to spend the capital in American blood and bucks for a few decades, centuries or millenia to re-educate the populations of those countries....

The blood and bucks are going to be spent regardless. As one of the Al Qaeda leaders, Abu Yahya al-Libi, said the other day, “Allah will not be pleased until we reach the rooftop of the White House.” We do not have a choice as to whether or not we fight the Islamo-fascists - our only choice is where we will fight them. If you'd rather it be in our back yard instead of theirs, then by all means let's tuck tail and run.

if you think it a good idea, then maybe you should accept a job over there teaching them to be good little followers of the almighty western ideals...it just ain't worth the cost in my little ledger book.......

The cost is unavoidable and the desire for freedom doesn't need to be taught, it is universal to all of humanity. As for me, the military doesn’t have much use for old Navy Supply Corps Commanders who haven’t stayed current with the latest developments in logistics. But bust me back to Lieutenant and put me back with the Sea Bees and I’ll go in a heartbeat.

Joseph

[madjack]

Jo-seph(sorry, I'm just lazy)...from your post, it sounds as if you advocate total war...so then, should we goto a total war footing, reinstitute the draft, invade and occupy the entirety of the middle east...and stay there for 50 years...that is what it will take to accomplish the goals you speak of...the western democratization of the entire area, in the slim hopes of stopping terrorism...the war against terror is one that will never be won or over...I see none of what you speak of over there...I see no mass demonstrations(or any demonstratins) against the "terrorists" and for us, whether in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon or elswhere...quite the opposite in fact...there has got to be a better way than bankrupting our country monetarily, physically and morally to bring these folks our democratic ideals...my god man, these are a people who went crazy, rioting over a cartoon...a conflict of cultures indeed.......
madjack

[Miriam C.]

Democracy will only work if the people we seek to influence see it a gainful to their way of life. It can't be for religious sects who want total control over all other religious sects because they want to kill each other.

How can they ever have a parlimentary procedure. They would fight like the first few generations of Americans. They might even have civil war. Some might cut off the heads of ruling families. They would in fact behave like us and the English and the French and the Germans and the Russians and the Japanese, and India and and and and and.....

BTW- Cyber mud slinging counts.

[Laredo]

I have sons the right age to be drafted.

Bush will get them for his oil war over my dead body. Period.

[Joseph]

...from your post, it sounds as if you advocate total war...so then, should we goto a total war footing, reinstitute the draft, invade and occupy the entirety of the middle east...and stay there for 50 years...

How can we have a total war against itinerant civilians? It’s like crime – we do what we can to prevent it and react to it when it happens. We don’t need the draft. Hell, we have plenty of troops sitting on their butts in Germany and Japan. We’re finally getting out of Iceland, for heaven’s sake! We went there to protect it from Nazi Germany when Denmark fell – yeah, we needed to stay there for sixty years!

the western democratization of the entire area, in the slim hopes of stopping terrorism...

Freedom and democracy are in fact the only way to stop terrorism. The terrorists themselves recognize that, which is why they’re going all out to stop it. The big question is, will we let them win?

the war against terror is one that will never be won or over...

That’s like saying we can never end crime, so why bother having police.

I see none of what you speak of over there...

Nor will you. This discussion started out with what our media portrays in Israel. There is one hell of a lot of good news over there that you’ll never see or hear about unless you talk to the folks who are on the ground there. That’s why recruiting is down, but retention is at record levels. The guys who are there see the good they’re doing and know it’s worth the sacrifice. Laredo, we don’t want your sons in the military if they don’t want to be there.

I see no mass demonstrations(or any demonstratins) against the "terrorists"

Perhaps not, but you do see thousands of Iraqis joining their police and military to fight them. A bit more effective than demonstrations, don’t you think?

and for us, whether in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon or elswhere...quite the opposite in fact...

The noisy always get the press – especially the anti-American noisy. That doesn’t make them the majority. As Father Andrew M.Greely wrote about Ireland: “Ireland is a violent country, but most of its people are not violent.” The same is true for the Middle East.

there has got to be a better way than bankrupting our country monetarily, physically and morally to bring these folks our democratic ideals...

I’m open to suggestions.

my god man, these are a people who went crazy, rioting over a cartoon...a conflict of cultures indeed.......

While I believe most if not all Muslims were offended by the cartoon, only a handful rioted. They got the press. By the same token, most if not all conservative Christians are deeply offended by abortion, but it’s the handful that blow up abortion clinics that get the press. That doesn’t mean the rest of Christendom condones it.

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” John Stuart Mill

Joseph

[Laredo]

I'm going to get off this thread now.

Joseph, with all due respect, I completely disagree with you.

"Terrorism" isn't war. It's a crime. The effective way to combat it is to treat its adherents, not as martyrs and heroes -- that's what keeps the fighting going in the Middle East and created generations of widows and avengers in Ireland -- but to treat them as what they are.

Thieves, murderers, and scum. Don't glorify them with a "war."

Like the "war on drugs", this is a hoodwink of the American people beyond all common sense; but as I say, I'm getting off this thread while I can still maintain civility in my bearing.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran, Joseph. I was proud to serve in the US Air Force while Jimmy Carter was President.

That's a completely different proposition than what's going on now.

[Joseph]

Joseph, with all due respect, I completely disagree with you.

Oh, now THERE’S a shock!

"Terrorism" isn't war. It's a crime.

Sorry, but IMHO that’s pre-9-11 thinking. That's why Clinton claims to have passed on Bin Laden – no legal grounds to take him. Though exactly why he couldn’t take him but COULD try to kill him still seems a bit little vague to me. But no matter - that is EXACTLY how we thought about terrorism prior to 9-11 and how I was trained for thirty-plus years, both in the military and as a Federal employee, to deal with it – as a crime. No longer…

The effective way to combat it is to treat its adherents, not as martyrs and heroes -- that's what keeps the fighting going in the Middle East and created generations of widows and avengers in Ireland -- but to treat them as what they are.

Which is exactly what I would like to see done. When a civilian is captured under arms attacking your troops, he’s a spy, a terrorist, whatever you want to call him. You interrogate him and get what information you can, then you execute him. You do not treat him as an enemy soldier, with all the rights afforded him by the Geneva Convention. And you especially do not treat him as a “criminal” with all the rights and due process of law including an ACLU-provided lawyer.

Thieves, murderers, and scum. Don't glorify them with a "war."

Sorry, but when a group of people declares to the world that they want to destroy your country, that’s a war. Because they don’t wear uniforms and cannot be identified with a particular nation makes it a lot harder to identify the enemy, but it’s a war.

Like the "war on drugs", this is a hoodwink of the American people beyond all common sense; but as I say, I'm getting off this thread while I can still maintain civility in my bearing.

Oh – you mean like the “war on poverty? Apples and oranges. The wars on poverty and drugs are both government social programs. Poverty can’t be ended, though we can certainly provide an economic climate that encourages effort rather than putting people on the dole and creating permanent dependency. Drugs? We should learn from our own history. Prohibition resulted in gang-related street violence which subsided with its repeal. Legalize drugs, control them, tax the bejaysus out of them and the same result will ensue.

I'm an honorably discharged veteran, Joseph.

So am I, Laredo. What’s that got to do with anything?

I was proud to serve in the US Air Force while Jimmy Carter was President.

I joined the Navy under Carter and retired under Clinton. But I was never prouder than when I was serving under Reagan.

That's a completely different proposition than what's going on now.

Yes. As I said, once upon a time, the enemy was a given nation with an identifiable government and military. Now it’s more of a worldwide cabal which we must either learn how to destroy or be destroyed ourselves. They will not give us any other choice.

Joseph

[Joseph]

Sorry, but when a group of people declares to the world that they want to destroy your country, that’s a war.

Sorry, that should have read, "...when a group of people declares to the world that they want to destroy your country and actively attempts to do so, that’s a war." The attacks on 9-11 were exactly that - they intended to destroy our economic system (the Twin Towers) and cut off the heads of both our military (the Pentagon) and our government (either the White House or Congress). This was a nothing short of an attempt to plunge this nation into chaos. We know there are Al Qaeda cells all over the country. God only knows what they would have attempted had they succeeded on 9-11, but I suspect that attacks on the governments of our major cites may well have been on the plate.

Joseph

[Ira]

Joseph, although I agree with a lot of what you say, I disagree with a lot more.

And all of the quotes within quotes in these threads won't change that. It's actually MUCH easier to attack a viewpoint point by point like this, as opposed to putting forward a balanced, comprehensive argument for a particular viewpoint.

Approaching this like a high school debate is easy--especially since there are no moderators here to confirm the facts.

But this fact is undeniable--one that this dope of a president of ours has uttered time and time again prior to the Iraqi invasion:

"Iran, North Korea and Iraq represent the 'axis of evil' in this world."

Gee, is it any WONDER what's happening in these countries now? And why we have NO moral high ground to stand on?

For Christ's sake, this shmuck has FLAMED the hostilities where we didn't need them flamed. Yet he expects the leaders of these countries to listen and obey him? While the majority of Americans AGREE that he's a worthless putz?

We're doomed.

[Ira]

Netanyahu and his bunch were terrorists, and they knew the consequences of their actions if they were caught. Had the Geneva Convention existed at the time, it would have availed them

Netanyahu?

[Joseph]

Approaching this like a high school debate is easy--especially since there are no moderators here to confirm the facts.

The joy of the Internet is that the facts are immediately available for confirmation or refutation.

But this fact is undeniable--one that this dope of a president of ours

Digressing slightly, I love how Bush is such a dope, and Kerry is so smart. So how come according to the Boston Globe their GPAs at Yale for basically the same course of study were virtually identical? But back to the matter at hand...

has uttered time and time again prior to the Iraqi invasion:
"Iran, North Korea and Iraq represent the 'axis of evil' in this world."

So what? Like they've had nice things to say about us at any time in history? The fact is, HE'S RIGHT when he said that! Now Hussein's Iraq is down and North Korea and Iran are on notice. Hell, even China is worried about North Korea.

Gee, is it any WONDER what's happening in these countries now?

Oh - like if he'd have said they were a great bunch of fellas then everything would be just hunky-dory.

And why we have NO moral high ground to stand on?

Just like we had no moral high ground to attack Germany after we were attacked by Japan in WWII. Germany wasn't bothering us...

For Christ's sake,

If you don't believe in Him, kindly abstain from using Him to back you up...

this shmuck has FLAMED the hostilities where we didn't need them flamed. Yet he expects the leaders of these countries to listen and obey him?

Hardly. I don't think President Reagan expected the Soviet Union to "listen and obey him" when he called them the "evil empire" either. It's called "putting your enemies on notice."

But Presidents Reagan and Bush are not the first to put our enemies on notice. "It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union." President John F. Kennedy, October 22, 1962.

Why in the HELL don't we have balls like that anymore?! We spend all our time worrying about how we might be offending our enemies! No wonder they think we're such fools...

While the majority of Americans AGREE that he's a worthless putz?

Actually, the worthless putz was his predecessor. The fact is, Bush ran twice on platforms that spelled out exactly what he was going to try to accomplish instead of trying to hide his agenda like the last gentleman he ran against. And both times when elected he set about at least trying to do exactly what he promised. Our problem is, we expect this to be like TV or the movies - over and done in an episode or maybe at worst at the end of a mini-series. Life ain't like that, and President Bush has never said otherwise.

We're doomed.

Only if we give up.

Joseph

[wolfix]

I promised myself that I would not read this thread nor post in it..... But I have to. As I read it, I see many opinions. I have to say I am a Republican. I have always voted Republican.

But this administration has embarressed me. I do not think that Bush is a bad guy, but he has some guys around him that should not be trusted. The corruption in this administration is a eye opener. I know that the Clinton years exposed us to corruption too, but that does not make it right for this administration.

It is easy to be a rah rah patriot and want to kick ass. But a person needs to be there when the bodies of these boys come home and see the grief on the families faces. I have seen this during the Vietnam years. I did not serve as I turned 18 several weeks after we pulled out in 1975. But as a altar boy in the catholic church I did serve several masses for these families. I also lost several friends whose deaths can be attributed to Viet-nam.. I did see a small part of the ugliness of that .

In college I studied advertising. We used to joke around about being the future "propagandists" of America. So when I see things happening recently, I see certain things happening that is nothing but propaganda for the masses of America.

For example.......
Everytime Bush gets cornered he lets it known that "You are either with us or against us." So in other words, if you question why our boys are dying, oil prices are high and yet oil company profits are at an all time high, you are not a patriot.

When war is studied, one thing that jumps out is the fact that big money is made by corporate America. The "no bid contracts " by Haliburton and other contractors are unheard of here in the states. Corporate America loves war. And most Congressmen are funded by corporate America.

People think questioning the war is an attack on the soldiers. Personally, not questioning the war is an attack on the soldiers. And if you doubt this, be at the airport when the body bag gets transferred to the family. One death of an American boy is too much if it could have been prevented. And as the Taliban is gaining strenght again, it looks as if we have another Viet-nam. We have dead soldiers who died in a conflict that was not winnable. We did not kick ass in Afganastan. We lost boys. And that is wrong.

Supporting the troops should be the most important thing you do as an American. But you need to question the leaders as to why they are sending troops.

And if you think our American leaders will support the troops when they come home, you just need to look back a few years and understand just how the POW/MIA's were treated. That was an American disgrace.

I sorta sound like a liberal hippy.......