How do you react to this?

[Laredo]

Joseph, you tax my patience beyond civility. Try to bite my tongue as I may, you provoke me. Your defense of the current situation and your ongoing denial that we as a nation bring our many immigrant peoples together into a whole greater than the sum of its parts by invitation and nurture, that we achieve common ground by creating a sense of "American" history and community, rather than dividing up into "Christian" and "infidel" and "liberal" and "conservative" factions all denigrating each other publicly is a position I cannot accept as in anyway based upon recognizable reality, and I find your "principles" dismaying, your prejudices obvious, and your political stance despicable.

Let me remind you that the current administration does not give accurate accounting of its spending in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the buildup against North Korea and/or Iran (as if we had enough soldiers and equipment to go adventuring in additional theatres -- we are pulling not just Individual Ready Reserve personnel but INACTIVE reservists into active duty, and men in their 50s are being sent into combat to die.). http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/10/ron_paulson_52-year-old_reservist_killed_in_iraq/

US citizens are not allowed to see the damage wrought by our bombs and our raids, nor are we told accurate numbers of our troops wounded or slain (the DOD refuses to count servicemembers who do not die in direct combat as casualties of Afhghanistan and/or Iraq, so if a soldier is in a vehicle blown up by a roadside bomb and lives to get to a hospital in Germany before dying that death is not counted; if a soldier comes home to the US and perishes as a result of wound infection or the spread of gangrene, that death is not counted. ) Nor are we given an accurate accounting of the numbers of people whose families, like those of this little girl, are destroyed by US soldiers shooting into cars at checkpoints or raiding homes in the middle of the night.



Yet we wonder "why they hate us" and we deny that we do wrong, claiming only that we are "spreading democracy" . Catapult the current administration's propaganda all you want, slice and dice and spin reality to fit the criteria of the Limbaugh dittohead and the Bush League Nation however you may, it remains propaganda.

It is still based on lies, it still stinks, and its proponents are either remarkably naive or extraordinarily wrongheaded to go on spewing it despite the clear and present evidence of its falsity.

Let me remind you also that, no matter what the problem, it is always cheaper to do simple preventive steps than expensive and extensive repairs.

[alaska teardrop]

Oh please - as I have pointed out here before, the biggest share of our spending does not go to defense, or Homeland Security, or Haliburton/Exxon - it goes to Health and Human Services.Joseph

I've always found that presenting the budget in that manner as disingenuous.

High national debt has always been a result of war spending and is certainly the case today. Therefore, the interest must be added to Defense. Also, add all of NASA, Veterans and Homeland Security. A sizable share of EPA spending is on military and military related industry Super Fund Sites. Some portion of Health & Human Services, Science, Transportation, Labor, Education, Energy, Independent Agencies, International Assistance, Interior and Engineers is spent on defense related programs.

Makes the Defense/War portion of the budget pie look a little different, aye Joseph? Ever wonder if Americans and others around the world could take better care of themselves and eachother, if all that money, technology and brain power were spent more wisely?

[Nitetimes]

....bring our many immigrant peoples together into a whole greater than the sum of its parts by invitation and nurture, that we achieve common ground by creating a sense of "American" history and community

Surely you jest!!!

Let me remind you also that, no matter what the problem, it is always cheaper to do simple preventive steps than expensive and extensive repairs.

I think there are quite a few in the towers that would have a different opinion of that silliness. And if they don't they surely should.

....the current administration does not give accurate accounting of its spending

And I'm quite certain every other adminstration has????

[Kevin A]

I'm posting this as a friendly reminder to keep this thread civil. If someone else's opinion is getting under your skin please take a time out or avoid the thread entirely. I often find my own thoughts getting quite heated at times while reading these politically oriented threads and have difficulty not responding to them. It's just not worth the aggravation it can cause from stressing myself out over it. So far this one has remained fairly civil but it is beginning to swing in the direction of hostility, PLEASE keep your tempers in check.

[Joseph]

Joseph, you tax my patience beyond civility. Try to bite my tongue as I may, you provoke me. Your defense of the current situation and your ongoing denial that we as a nation bring our many immigrant peoples together into a whole greater than the sum of its parts by invitation and nurture, that we achieve common ground by creating a sense of "American" history and community, rather than dividing up into "Christian" and "infidel" and "liberal" and "conservative" factions all denigrating each other publicly is a position I cannot accept as in anyway based upon recognizable reality, and I find your "principles" dismaying, your prejudices obvious, and your political stance despicable.

It's a gift.

Seriously, when I offer something up as fact, I give you the source of my information. I notice that you offer up a lot of damning allegations, but no sources whatsoever for your "facts."
Interesting...

Joseph

[jay]

i really looked forward to the scenes in Grampa's workshop with all the cool old tools and equipment

[Joseph]

I've always found that presenting the budget in that manner as disingenuous.

OK, here's the raw data. As you can see, Defense is $479 million, Health and Human Services is 581 million.

national debt has always been a result of war spending and is certainly the case today. Therefore, the interest must be added to Defense. Also, add all of NASA, Veterans and Homeland Security. A sizable share of EPA spending is on military and military related industry Super Fund Sites. Some portion of Health & Human Services, Science, Transportation, Labor, Education, Energy, Independent Agencies, International Assistance, Interior and Engineers is spent on defense related programs.

Sorry, but those items have their own budgets which are NOT administered by the DoD. By your logic, one could say that ALL spending is for Defense since "some portion" of every budget can be construed as being defense-related. Or for that matter, one could say ALL spending is for Health and Human Services since "some portion" of every budget is also spent there. Mixing apples and oranges so that the picture suits your world view just doesn't wash.

Makes the Defense/War portion of the budget pie look a little different, aye Joseph?

Nay. Not even a little bit.

Ever wonder if Americans and others around the world could take better care of themselves and eachother, if all that money, technology and brain power were spent more wisely?

Lovely little dream, but unfortunately, human nature being what it is, we will not see an end to wars until cockroaches rule the earth. And while I'm not saying war is a good thing, there certainly is nothing like it to create significant advances in technology. A pity that humans seem to put forth their finest efforts while looking for ways to destroy each other or to keep from being destroyed, but that's how we are.

Joseph

[alaska teardrop]

Sorry, but those items have their own budgets which are NOT administered by the DoD. By your logic, one could say that ALL spending is for Defense since "some portion" of every budget can be construed as being defense-related. Or for that matter, one could say ALL spending is for Health and Human Services since "some portion" of every budget is also spent there. Mixing apples and oranges so that the picture suits your world just doesn't wash.

Exactly what I meant by disingenuous - Lacking in candor/giving a false appearance of simple frankness.

Nay. Not even a little bit.

The blindness of a zealot.

?? we will not see an end to wars until cockroaches rule the earth. ??

The cockroaches do rule a significant portion of the earth. The wars continue.

A pity that humans seem to put forth their finest efforts while looking for ways to destroy each other

Please do not include this human in that statement. I'll reserve my finest for making the world a better place for humans, critters and the environment we live in.

[Joseph]

Exactly what I meant by disingenuous - Lacking in candor/giving a false appearance of simple frankness.

The blindness of a zealot.

I am being perfectly frank AND candid. But that's right - when you can't prove your point, just resort to accusations and name-calling. Ira, Laredo and I may go at it hammer and tongs, but at least we are civil to one another - we may attack each other's ideas, but not each other.

Joseph

[sdtripper2]

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

We on the T&TTT forum are like the "family space adventure" (Lost in Space)

We only have ourselves to get along with on the forum so please use



Please click button:


Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

[Joseph]

We on the T&TTT forum are like the "family space adventure" (Lost in Space)

And I'm sure in the minds of many I'm the evil Dr. Smith...

Joseph

[Ira]

I'm back:

I wanted to let this go two more pages before getting back into the fray.

Joseph, how could one so supposedly educated as yourself be so blind as to what is happening in this country? I'm just trying to UNDERSTAND what you believe:

Are you saying that government and corporate policies regarding health benefits, job security and opportunities for advancement over the past 25, 35 years have been GOOD for Americans? Is that what you're really saying? That we're BETTER OFF now? Employer and employee ALIKE?

Do you have neighbors and actually talk to them? Do you see what the majority of Americans are and have been thinking for a VERY long time?

Put the rhetoric aside, put the party ideology aside, and are you STILL claiming this?

If so, there really is no discussing this with you. You just don't know what the hell is going in America today, or you don't care or believe that things could or should be better.

Also, many of your posted facts are distorted beyond belief, and if you want to go head to head about the facts regarding Wal-Mart, I'll be GLAD to do it with you:

But I'll drop my first torpedo on your unlightened Wal-Mart head:

No--a company is NOT alllowed to hire as many "part-time" workers as they want, who don't receive benefits. This is the LAW, and Wal-Mart is lobbying, and pushing the issue beyond belief--STILL saying that they're good for America! There is a number, a formula, where the labor laws kick in and the government says, "What the hell are these guys doing here?"

I guess in a Republican world, having half of your labor needs filled by part-timers--even if you have to hire 75% of your workforce to accomplish that 50%--is okay. But it is STILL against the law.

Know why? It has to do with companies hiring 10-year-olds in sweatshops. Making poor, desperate people work 7 days a week like they did in the garment industry on the lower east side of Manhattan. Trying to rid this country of the attitude," Well, if they die or quit, we'll just hire someone else."

And you know what happened when this was accomplished? When this elitist "Business above all " attitude was reeled in?

Unprecedented growth and prosperity here.

Trying to keep this civil, Kevin. But in light of other comments here and in other threads, I only have this to say:

I love arguing with Joseph, but Jay is just a total putz.

Not only are all of his posts just downright hostile and sarcastic, they're not even entertaining in the least.

[alaska teardrop]

Joseph,

I feel that my original point on how our government presents expenditures to the American puplic, in such a simplistic manner, is legitimate. That, at least on the surface, it doesn't give a full accounting of defense costs. If you believe that it is 'candid', that's your choice. Whether we agree, or not, on each of those expenditures was not the point.

Yes, my 'lovely little dream' is to achieve peace without war. If you care to parse and demean my words and views to make your point, as you have with others, than that is you choice too. I'll stand on my views, and I'll call a spade a spade. There is nothing uncivil about honesty.

[Ira]

One more thing:

Will you Republicans STOP using the expression "Throw money at something," even when we're talking about increased spending for education?

Just a little bit of advice, because that's a really tired way of twisting the issues, and you just have to get over it.

Also, your use of the term "liberal" as a dirty word doesn't seem to have the same damaging impact on us now that it may have had in the past. And that's because the word "stupid," so closely associated with this president, has taken the leading role in these semantics.

Look:

It's not MY fault that Nancy Pelosi is so smart and that you guys just can't take her heat!

[cracker39]

Ira, you do have one benefit that a lot of people don't. You get to be on the internet a lot. I did too with my last "real" job (the CAREER, not the piddling, meaningless, working for idiots job I had down here after I was laid off from my 27 year CAREER job, working for a quarter of my CAREER salary). Maybe being on the internet as much as I was (but still got my work done) helped them decide my job wasn't necessary.