Major setback....Update, Pictures added

[Tripmaker]

Well I knew I would screw up somewhere and it happened. To use a military term...FUBAR!

When I installed my first ceiling panel it went in a bit tight but I was able to press it into place. The second panel I cut just a little smaller and it went in with no problem. Both are glued in and the TD is rock solid. So what's the problem you say. Last night looking at the rear end something didn't look right. So I put my square on the floor and walls at the back and I'm out of square big time. Enough so the rear hatch can't work since everything is wapperjawed. That's a technical term. It seems when I pressed the first panel into place it torqued the frame a small amount in the front which resulted in a major deflection in the rear.

With everything glued up and holding the walls in place, it looks like the only solution will be to rip out the two panels. This presents more problems as I am guessing the panels will not come off the spars so they (spars) can be reused which means I may have to cut the spars out and start over. Then there is the issue of getting the walls cleaned of glue so the the new spars and glue will adhere.

Now I feel like a total dumba** and don't want to compound the problem. I'm hoping that someone will have a better solution or at least some ideas on doing as little additional damage as possible. Has anyone else had this issue to deal with? Probably not, but like they say, misery loves company. Or in this case misery needs HELP!

Jim

[halfdome, Danny]

I think you have the answer, you need to rip out what is out of square and rebuild square. If you try to patch up your out of squareness you will just compound your problems and you won't enjoy the build or the end results. Danny

[Miriam C.]

Trip
Here are some questions that might help.

One more. Are all the spars square with each other? Measure the diagonal between each, both ways. You may have moved one and pulled it in to screw it down.

You put your spars in then your ceiling right? Is it the ceiling or the roof?
Take the panels out with a chisel a sharp one. The ply should seperate and come right off.

Did you glue each spar to the ceiling?
Take the ceiling and spars off in one piece and rip the spars out individually.

If your spars are screwed in first, how did the ceiling panel torque the body.
Check to see if you inadvertantly got a long spar.

Is the whole body skewed? Think two paralell lines going off at the same angle.

Is it that the galley or front is moved forward/backward on one corner? Easy fix.

More info or pictures also help.
Sorry for your extra work.

[Tripmaker]

Trip
Here are some questions that might help.

One more. Are all the spars square with each other? Measure the diagonal between each, both ways. You may have moved one and pulled it in to screw it down.

You put your spars in then your ceiling right? Is it the ceiling or the roof?
Take the panels out with a chisel a sharp one. The ply should seperate and come right off.

Did you glue each spar to the ceiling?
Take the ceiling and spars off in one piece and rip the spars out individually.

If your spars are screwed in first, how did the ceiling panel torque the body.
Check to see if you inadvertantly got a long spar.

Is the whole body skewed? Think two paralell lines going off at the same angle.

Is it that the galley or front is moved forward/backward on one corner? Easy fix.

More info or pictures also help.
Sorry for your extra work.

First I'll clarify out of square. Both walls lean out to the right, at the rear galley end, from the floor about 1/2" at the high point of a 2' square. The distance of course would be greater higher up.

"Is the whole body skewed? Think two paralell lines going off at the same angle." Yes the walls are paralell with each other. At the front the out of square is much smaller. Like swinging a yard stick small movement in front becomes a greater distance at the end.

When I initally set the wall I used the square ends of the ply cut from the radius cuts, like most do, to square and support the walls. Then I glued and screwed the spars which were all cut at the same time and all of equal length. After the spars were installed I removed the plywood braces and everything was OK.

I then installed the ceiling gluing it to the spars. The roof and insulation is not yet installed.

"If your spars are screwed in first, how did the ceiling panel torque the body." Not sure on that one but it appears that in pressing the first tight fit ceiling panel in it did something. The tight fit was right in the radius, that is where I pushed. I'm thinking that kicked the walls out toward the rear following the tail end of the plywood.

I hope that helps you understand the problem. I'll check the diagonals of each spar section later when I get home. FYI so you know what I'm building, I am following the Generic Benroy Plans from this site. Aparently not closely enough though. There are pictures in my album of the walls and spars before the ceiling panels if that helps.

Thanks
Jim

[Ira]

Edit.....

You're gonna have to remove the stuff and see what's going on there.

This was my biggest fear--that I would be out of square. I had a slight warp/bow at the galley end of one wall, but it didn't "kill me" too much. I made sure that all of my spars measured exactly alike (no easy feat for me), and made sure I marked their positions exactly on the walls before attaching.

If a spar varied 1/4" in position from one end to theother end, that would screw the whole thing up.

[Tripmaker]

Edit.....

You're gonna have to remove the stuff and see what's going on there.

This was my biggest fear--that I would be out of square. I had a slight warp/bow at the galley end of one wall, but it didn't "kill me" too much. I made sure that all of my spars measured exactly alike (no easy feat for me), and made sure I marked their positions exactly on the walls before attaching.

If a spar varied 1/4" in position from one end to theother end, that would screw the whole thing up.

I know what you mean. I marked the spar locations when I had the two walls clamped together for sanding so that I would be sure they were in the same place.

Yes unfortunately I believe I will have to take it apart till I get to where they are square again.

[Miriam C.]

Edit.....

You're gonna have to remove the stuff and see what's going on there.

This was my biggest fear--that I would be out of square. I had a slight warp/bow at the galley end of one wall, but it didn't "kill me" too much. I made sure that all of my spars measured exactly alike (no easy feat for me), and made sure I marked their positions exactly on the walls before attaching.

If a spar varied 1/4" in position from one end to theother end, that would screw the whole thing up.

I know what you mean. I marked the spar locations when I had the two walls clamped together for sanding so that I would be sure they were in the same place.

Yes unfortunately I believe I will have to take it apart till I get to where they are square again.

If you pushed and had only one screw in each spar one side could have moved front and one moved back. Wouldn't take much to cause a big problem at the back. It sounds more like your panel was not square and it moved everything.

1. Start by checking the alinement of your spars. If they are off move them or simply cut spars to pull the sides back in. Use a tape and measure the diagonal and use a square on all spars.

2..Take the panel off and square the next piece of plywood before you cut it to make the panel. Square each piece before you measure to length. Plywood is not always square ya know.

With your panels off---add tempory spars over the entire thing to pull it square then panel. You won't know the difference.

BTW--level is not square

[kayakrguy]

Jim,

If the walls are truly parallel and not toooooo badly out of square, I would think that the hatch, once attached to a hinge would fit ok, or the hinge spars could be shimmed so the hinge and hatch would follow the out of squareness....? All depends on how much out of square

Jim

[Tripmaker]

Jim,

If the walls are truly parallel and not toooooo badly out of square, I would think that the hatch, once attached to a hinge would fit ok, or the hinge spars could be shimmed so the hinge and hatch would follow the out of squareness....? All depends on how much out of square

Jim

I see what you are saying. If the walls are paralell and the hinge is perpendicular, it should work. You may be right on that except that the bottom of the hatch will not be square with the floor and the hatch should hit the floor on one side. Let's say that the walls are off plumb equally but the floor and roof are level, in other words a trapazoid, the hatch will hit the wall on one side. With only 1/8" clearance on either side it will not take much to hit. If the roof is perpendicular to the walls then the hatch will hit the floor on one side. Besides all that what made me check is it did not look straight. If I can see it, I know it's not right, therefore I have to fix it or I will be unhappy every time I look at it. Bummer! I was hoping for a simple fix but deep down know there is no simple fix. I just hope after I rip out the ceiling it squares up ok.

[Miriam C.]

Woke me outta what coulda been a great nap.

Both walls lean out to the right, at the rear galley end, from the floor about 1/2" at the high point of a 2' square. The distance of course would be greater higher up.

Check you trailer and see if it is Level!!! Measure from the floor to the corners. All 4. My garage floor shifted with the drought. You wouldn't believe what I was gonna do.

See if it is twisted.

Barring that: Take that piece of ceiling off and get on the right side and push, put your braces (after you see if they are square) back on and leave them on till you get it straight. Then square your plywood.

[Gerdo]

If your TD is actualy a Trapazoid you need to fix it. Is it a trapazoid in the front and the back or just the back? Do you have a bulkhead in the back for the galley wall yet? Can you push on the top corner and get it back to square? If so, brace it and get your bulkhead in. This will hold it square. You may want to go with a heaver ply for your bulkhead than you planed. Is your frame now twisted? You may want to get it up on 4 jackstands, even and level. You will hate yourself if it is twisted and you don't fix it. It may be slight but you will know it is that way forever and everything will fight you when you continue to build.

I used a piece of 3/4" ply (too heavy) for my front bulkhead.



And another for my galley bulkhead.



I put these in before I started on my roof spars/skin. I made sure that they were perfectly square. They are slid into a dado groove, glued and screwed. This kept everything square.

If you can pull things back into square the bulkhead and outer skin should keep it there.

P.S. I built my hatch frame on the floor and strapped it centered in the opening it dry. This assured me that it would fit. I also used some clamps and shims to keep the spaces even.



I also put the first sheet of skin, glue and nailed, on before removing to skin the rest. (Let everything dry)

[halfdome, Danny]

Edit.....


BTW--level is not square

While working in my shop this quote stuck in my mind. In a tear level has everything to do with square. If your deck isn't perfectly level your tear won't be square. Danny

[Miriam C.]

Edit.....


BTW--level is not square

While working in my shop this quote stuck in my mind. In a tear level has everything to do with square. If your deck isn't perfectly level your tear won't be square. Danny

My point... If you are leveling spars going up the front or back instead of squaring them with the sides you will get off everytime the ground or air in a tire shifts.

Yes level deck, absolutely. Then square the spars and sides.

[kayakrguy]

Jim,

I think you're right--if you don't like the T that defeats part of the pleasure of building...so no, there is no simple fix unless what Gerdo recommends is workable.

We are doing our hatch skin as he describes....the hatch is presently clamped and shimmed in place and we will skin it while it is in the T

I had to redo several things in the course of the build...part of what MJ calls 'learning a new set of skills' <g> My new skill set is doing things twice twice <g>

Jim Jim

[Gerdo]

Mind you. Everything I did with the hatch wasn't because I was out of square, because I'm within a 32nd of an inch, but I wanted it to fit perfectly and it does. The bulkheads made everything and kept everything square. I did level my frame on 4 jackstands until it was closed up. Evertime I had to move it I releveled.