Big Box Stores and Jobs

[Laredo]

To go back the way this started ...

Unions came along during the Depression. At that time Wall Street was in the dumper and people were literally starving in a land of plenty because the fat cats had jumped out of windows rather than try to figure out why their stock shilling game had gone bust.

The stock shilling is at an all time high since then again.
People are in debt in the US at a level not seen since the 1970s (and we all know how well that went). But stock market news isn't a ticker tape at the end of the 30-minute evening broadcast now; it's frontpage everywhere for everyone because the Wall Street stock shill merchants have duped us into taking IRAs and buying stocks instead of saving the money left at the end of our paychecks (yeah, when was the last time YOUR money lasted past the end of the month???) against illness, unemployment or retirement.

Meanwhile these same shill merchants have loudly and proudly bought their way into the K Street and DC scene demanding more and more $$$ for less and less while blaming all the shortcomings of their "bottom line this quarter" management style on American workers and American unions that really did stand for and really are responsible for creating a workplace where you can't be fired for being sick (which the corporations would love to do) or laid off for being old (which would make the corps happier too) or have your hours cut because you're working more than the minimum the corp can have you without having to pay your full benefits (which is how WM rakes in those obscene profits out of which it pays that pittance of charity work its ads glossily tout).

It's a con job aimed at making the American people hate one another instead of standing up arm-in-arm against the shill merchants.

But it's failing. Wall Street can't prop up its phony paper forever on fancy excuses and worthless stalling, and people have caught on at last.

Can't happen too soon. FDR was right and the only thing we have to fear is fear, but as long as we let ourselves be scared out of using our common sense the corporations will win and we the working people of America will continue to lose, regardless.

[asianflava]

There was a time and place for unions. They improved the workplace for all of us. Nowadays, they have worked the system and wrung for all it's worth, there is little public sympathy for them. They can strike but there are a lot of people behind the lines who will jump at the chance to take their spot. Being called a "scab" doesn't carry the stigma it once did. People are looking out for number one, no company loyalty, no union loyalty, they have to pay their own bills and srcatch out a living.

It's true that that companies can or do take advantage of their workers. It's true that Unions take advantage of their companes. There has to be a happy medium. The problem is, it's easier (and cheaper) for the company to say, "I give up, we're moving" The unions have to realize that no matter how big thier pocketbook is, no matter how strong they are, they can't win if the company moves.

[lanego]

A very brief sketch of the American labor movement:

The American labor movement began forming unions as early as 1840 with the Knights of Labor; Peter J. McGuire, a carpenter and labor union leader, cofounded the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions in 1881; the American Federation of Labor (AFL), founded 1886 by Samuel Gompers; Pullman Strike, the wildcat strike by the Pullman Palace Car Company in Illinois on May 11, 1894; in 1892, the Homestead Strike by the Homestead Lodges of the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers; 1862, first record of the Molly Maguires; 1868, John Siney formed the Workingmen's Benevolent Association (WBA); 1900, International Ladies Garment Workers Union (ILGWU); 1935, Congress of Industrial Organizers (CIO); 1955, AFL-CIO merged. I have not incorporated details of the sweatshop fires, mining disasters, strike breaking and other loss of life and bloodshed into this sketch, but it is myriad.

There was a time and place for unions.

My feelings on that:

They improved the workplace for all of us. Nowadays, they have worked the system and wrung for all it's worth, there is little public sympathy for them. They can strike but there are a lot of people behind the lines who will jump at the chance to take their spot. Being called a "scab" doesn't carry the stigma it once did. People are looking out for number one, no company loyalty, no union loyalty, they have to pay their own bills and srcatch out a living.

You bet they improved your working conditions and thereby, ALL your living conditions. And the whole world knows this; that's why they all want to be HERE. YOU may have little sympathy for unions in TEXAS where we are not as industrialized as, say, OHIO or NEW YORK, but I advise you not to talk like that in Youngstown.

I do agree unions need to embrace new models, JUST AS I believe government, buraucries, and corporations need to embrace finer models, standards and ethics. (Corruption is rampant in society, so where are we going and what do we want to be? This is the ongoing human dilemma that is becoming more critical to confront by the hour.) A movement for better, more ethical self-governance within unions is in order. I DO NOT AGREE THAT THE TIME FOR WORKING MEN AND WOMEN TO ORGANIZE TO PROTECT THEIR LIVES, LIVELIHOODS OR STANDARDS OF LIVING IS EVER PAST! The wicked and greedy lay in wait for weakness and discension in every group. Eternal vigilance is required to halt such scum from attaining power. When they do attain power, we must use the means available to oust them from power. Hopefully, by ORGANIZING and without bloodshed.
.

.a couple of thoughts on how unions work now days...when a man is paid based solely on his longevity with the company with no regard for his productivity or competence, that is wrong...

That said, I think pay scales should incorporate both quality volume produced and longevity because in many hard trades the younger worker produces more based on sheer youthful strength, BUT the experienced worker brings ineffable wisdom and skill to the craft, producing finer quality and passing on the accumulated knowledge of the craft or trade to the younger craftsman. This is the original purpose of the apprentice system handed down to us by the guilds of Mediveal times and before. This system has had its abuses since before Jesus was born, so we must once again be forever vigilant. And speaking of vigilance:

...a couple of real life experiences from the road...2 Paper mills...each making similar products and similar in size and location...the nonunion loading dock takes 2 hours to load your truck...the union dock takes 12-16 hours to load your truck...a unionized food processing co...one of the most beautifully organized wharehouses I have ever seen...30 loading docks...30 forklift operators WITH helpers...all hanging out doing nothing but talking shop...24 to 36 hours to load a truck...when a supervisor was asked why they can't get trucks loaded any faster and why so many employees are doing nothing, he informs me that he can't say anthing to the operators becuse they would file a grievance and he would be fired because the co didn't want problems with the union...whenever I would go into a plant to load/unload, if I found out it was union, I would go back out to the truck and goto bed...if it was non-union, I would get a cup of coffee and wait for the dockworkers to finish...about the time I finished my coffee...unions had and still have a place...just not, as many are operated today...if you want to talk productivity...look to a non-union shop...that has been my experience....

Well, did you try to organize all the truckers with that experience to complain together through their own companies to get this abuse sorted out? Were you threatened to keep quiet? Maybe you didn't know how to approach the situation to get improvement? I'm not criticizing you, but that's what I mean about vigilance - it requires active involvement, passionate belief and often years of effort working for answers. But, you had some free time...

t's true that that companies can or do take advantage of their workers. It's true that Unions take advantage of their companes. There has to be a happy medium. The problem is, it's easier (and cheaper) for the company to say, "I give up, we're moving" The unions have to realize that no matter how big thier pocketbook is, no matter how strong they are, they can't win if the company moves.

As for companies moving at the first better opportunity, again, I believe in sanctions, not tax breaks for such scum. You don't give up the ship at the first sign of a leak, YOU FIX IT! More required mediation may be part of the answer. But the very core of what America is and will be is at stake here. Are you committed to stick it out, tough it out, work it out? I see the pendulum swinging away from condoning those who are out for number one and to hell with everyone else. If we are to survive both literally and politically, we must rein in our self-involved, hedonistic, amoral and immoral lifestyles. Those who don't should be shunned and exiled, especially those in the seven-figure-plus income bracket. That said, I think we should move toward more and more employee owned and operated businesses, both small and large. I think small internet businesses should get together locally and buy properties co-operatively where they can each have a small booth like an antique mall to showcase their stuff. I see innovative responses to the internet age everywhere; I have faith in our entrepreneurs.

I want to buy locally and make the effort to do so when possible to make my community strong. So do you want America to be strong or weak? Do you want a real hometown or a bedroom community to live in. It costs a bit more, and I don't get quite as much of that junk stuff I didn't need in the first place - BUT do I want more stuff that means more Americans are reduced to conditions of 100 years ago, to poverty and virtual job slavery? Do I think I can escape while I condemn others? NO!!! Would I revel in it if I did? NO!!! - I want to stand with my sisters and brothers in glaring sun of equality... AND I DON'T CARE HOW OLD-FASHIONED OR CORNY THAT SOUNDS!!! Our hope rests in our constitutional rights; specifically, to this issue, our First Amendment rights: Freedom of speech, press, religion, peaceable assembly, and to petition the government. All rights that lead to the ability to form unions. As troubled and beleaguered as our unions are, they are our only bulwark against enslavement by the corporate giants who already control our politicians. LONG LIVE THE UNIONS - LONG LIVE THE UNION!

[Nitetimes]

I wasn't going to say anything else but you are obviously terribly uninformed as to what the unions have done up here in the north east. There is hardly a town around here that had any industry in them that haven't felt the effects of the unions. Most have lost major employers to union demands over the years. Businesses have closed their doors or moved out.
The time of the unions is over, time to move on.
I always seem to hear this argument from people that don't actually work in plants where unions are present. I'm not sure how someone sitting at a desk that doesn't see the lazy POS next to me collecting a paycheck has any business telling me this fool deserves that job.
I am curious to what you think Jack could do to change what he saw at the plants. The unions start the mindset that I only have to do my particular job and helping someone else out when I'm not doing anything is not in my contract. That's how it works now. A lot of places do not even allow you to do anything but your particular job so they don't get in trouble with the union.

Please step inside and see what really goes on before you tell me how things work because you are way off the mark, sorry.

[billydj]

can you say

CORRUPTION

COME ON ITS EASY.....AND YOU KNOW ITS TRUE


MR. BILLYDJ

[asianflava]

A buddy of mine was a rep for some equipment that we used. He told me some stories about his experiences at union shops. One time, he had to install some equipment in the factory ASAP. When it arrived, he made the mistake of opening the crate. Mind you this is his equipment so He's fairly competent on how to uncrate it.

Well, it was made into a big deal because since it was union shop, he was supposed to wait for one guy to unload it, then another guy to open the crate, and another guy to move it to the factory floor. How is running like that "good buisness"? The next piece of equipment that arrived, took 2 days to get from the truck to the factory. This was a rushed job BTW.

[Sonetpro]

I wasn't going to say anything else but you are obviously terribly uninformed as to what the unions have done up here in the north east. There is hardly a town around here that had any industry in them that haven't felt the effects of the unions. Most have lost major employers to union demands over the years. Businesses have closed their doors or moved out.
The time of the unions is over, time to move on.
I always seem to hear this argument from people that don't actually work in plants where unions are present. I'm not sure how someone sitting at a desk that doesn't see the lazy POS next to me collecting a paycheck has any business telling me this fool deserves that job.
I am curious to what you think Jack could do to change what he saw at the plants. The unions start the mindset that I only have to do my particular job and helping someone else out when I'm not doing anything is not in my contract. That's how it works now. A lot of places do not even allow you to do anything but your particular job so they don't get in trouble with the union.

Please step inside and see what really goes on before you tell me how things work because you are way off the mark, sorry.

When I was younger I was a teamster. Even union shops have their way to get around the union rules. It was called "casuals" casuals were people that worked there to supplement the workload. Casuals had to be a part of the union and pay union dues. They just didn't get the benefits. So the company would work you 39 hours a week and kept you on a call in everyday basis so you were not full time. That way they did not have to pay union benifits.
The trouble was that as a casual you also didn't have any union protection and you did not get union pay.
So all the "Regulars" would watch all of the casuals do all of the work. The Regulars didn't have to work and were untouchable because of union protection.
As a driver, even though I was union I dreaded going to union warehouses. As Jack said they could stretch a 2 hour job into an all day job.

[lanego]

I grew up in an industrial town, Springfield, Ohio, in a union home(machinists); I married into a union family(loading dock workers). My stepfather may have been a monster, but he was a hard working one and a skilled machinist; my father-in-law would have been justified to do grave bodily harm to any one who said they did not work hard all day. He was a union supervisor and his men all worked hard; my ex worked casual on the docks while going to college. No complaints that the other guys didn't work hard. My grandfather was a pressman. Etc... I may have a desk job but I've worked in union plants - must be the magic ones where people pull their own weight as much as in non-union plants. I've also worked as a draftsman and cabinet finisher in non-union shops. Slackers there as much as everywhere. If people lost an industry in a town, weren't those the people who worked in the industry? Do they think they didn't deserve the pay and benefits the union was asking? Or was it just cheaper to go to China and blame the unions for everything? I guess no non-union plants in your area closed and the jobs shipped overseas. I just don't believe the line that everybody but me is a slacker and that's why my job went to China. I think it's because slave labor is just cheaper and no benefits required. As for Madjack, I asked some questions - no harm there. I doubt he's insulted. I don't know specifically what, if any, effect he could have had. I just believe if more people tried to have an effect, one would happen. Figuring out what to try is individual. If you don't try, then obviously, things won't change. Why should they? Neither corporations nor unions are ideals, but I'll take the union any day.

[Nitetimes]

If people lost an industry in a town, weren't those the people who worked in the industry? Do they think they didn't deserve the pay and benefits the union was asking?

I'm sure the union had them convinced they were worth plenty but you can only get what the economy can support. Lots of the industry around here was steel. When we started getting stuff from overseas the unions decided that they could still keep pushing for more, more, more, guess what, didn't happen. Mills couldn't compete and they couldn't meet the rising demands of the unions so they shut the doors.
It may not be right because cheap steel started it but at some point you have to give instead of take to keep things afloat. They just had it in their heads that they'd never shut down the plants, wrong. There are two big ones in town here that are gone, one shut down, one consolidated in another state as a direct result union greed.

Or was it just cheaper to go to China and blame the unions for everything? I guess no non-union plants in your area closed and the jobs shipped overseas.

Can't speak for everywhere but none that I know of around here.
FWIW, no union is going to stop a corporation from moving overseas.

Figuring out what to try is individual. If you don't try, then obviously, things won't change. Why should they? I just believe if more people tried to have an effect, one would happen.

I'm really curious here. What is it you think you can do to change things at a plant you don't even work at. It's hard enough just to get loaded, who do you figure you'd complain to that would listen or care that wouldn't make getting loaded even slower. You don't walk into a union shop and complain about the way things are run or you could find yourself being escorted out and you certainly aren't going to complain to the corporation, they know how it's run and it's all figured into the cost of the goods.

Neither corporations nor unions are ideals, but I'll take the union any day.

Your right, and you can have them, I'll take my chances doing an honest days work. At least then I'm not putting money in someones pocket for protection I'm not interested in.

I'm not sure what happened to the idea that if you show someone what you can do you get paid better or promoted. Now it seems like everyone is of the idea that if you pay me more I'll do more, of course it never happens.

I'm sure those folks you mentioned did work plenty hard at their jobs, most of them had pride in what they did. It isn't that way anymore and I doubt if it ever will be. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

[lanego]

While you are wallowing, other good people are putting in endless off duty hours working to make a difference. Enjoy.

[Nitetimes]

While you are wallowing, other good people are putting in endless off duty hours working to make a difference. Enjoy.

Well you lost me there. How am I wallowing. I'm just stating the facts, nothing more, nothing less.
If they did something when they were on duty I'd be more impressed.

[calwes]

"Amen" Rich

[Ron]

I would like to add my comments on this friendly "Union" discussion.

First, a little about me.
I grew up in the northeast in a small town surrounded by the heavy industries typical of the northeast. Those include, steel mills, coal minning, chemical plants, power plants and other industries. All of these industries are heavily involved with strong unions and large powerful companies so day to day operations are filled with labor management relations issues.
My college courses began with labor management relations, labor law, workers compensation, grievance and arbitration procedures, etc. I felt I needed to know how these things worked in detail to understand how labor and management used these topics in real life day to day dealings.
I went to work in the coal mining industry and spent many years there. And yes, working as a union member in the UMWA (United Mine Workers of America). The mine I worked at had at one time about a 1000 employees total.
During the many years I was there I was elected to a number of union positions there over the years including; grievance rep., workers comp rep., safety rep., compac rep., recording secretery, and President.
As a grievance rep. I would handle the union employees grievances thru the grievance procedure up to and including the arbitration hearings.
As a workers comp rep. I would help the employee file and get their workers comp payments when they got hurt in the mines.
As a safety rep I would assist the state and federal mine inspectors in inspecting the coal mine for safety violations and issues pertaining to coal miners safety.
As a Compac rep.(coal miners political action committee) I would focus on the political aspects of the union membership. And also acting as a lobbyist when the state legislature was in session.
As president I was responsible for all the different committee members (about 20 people), the union's position in dealing with management, and the unions finances and all other issues pertaining to the local union.
My first position was as a workers comp rep. I got into this because I could not stand seeing hurt employees being denied their benifits and losing their homes and cars just because the company wanted to deny them their benifits just to get them to come back to work. I believe that if your hurt in the mines you are entitled to get your benifits without some company rep being able to force you to come back to work before you are released by your doctor. Minning is a dangerous occupation and people get hurt all the time down there.
And speaking of safety, You all remember the group of miners that died last year. When things like this happens, and other incidents, you wont find the companies going to the state legislature lobbying to get more mine safety laws passed. But, you will find the unions lobbying the state legislature for new minning laws. Almost every law for the miners was a result of someone who died.
So in my opinion, I think that unions are still needed to help keep things safe and secure for the workers. Not only in the minning industries but other industries as well.
As far as some of you finding union workers in some locations and some industries not doing their jobs....well that happens in all industries, union or not. It's like when a bad cop is exposed for doing something wrong, that dosent mean that ALL cops are bad.
As far as those employees not doing their job? Just because they are in a union dosent mean that they dont have to do their job, on the contrary, they do have to do their job. And it is up to their supervisors and managers to see to it they DO do their job. I know of NO union contract anywhere that allows an employee to sit on their but all day and do nothing. I cant imagine a company allowing this into a contract.
Put yourself in the management position, what would you agree too in a contract, would you allow employees to do nothing and get paid? I would not allow it!! If you have seen this than the employee is taking advantage of his employer, and his supervisors need to be repramanded for this. As for this being the union's fault it is not, because it is not in any union contract to force the company to pay for an employee to do nothing.
As far as businesses moving out of the northeast? Thats why I now live in Texas. Businesses have been moving to the south from the north for years now. The good wages in the north are replaced by cheap labor in the south. And the companys can blame it on unions or what ever they want, the bottom line is they make more money on cheaper labor. And some even take it a step further and move on down to Mexico, or even off-shore to China and other places, what ever helps grow the net profit to satisfy the shareholders.

In conclusion; I think unions still have their place and serve a good purpose to most industries. And I also agree that there are a few unions that need to re-focus their efferts and not tolerate the bad examples that have been giving unions a bad reputation.

I'm not trying to upset anyone here, these are just some observations.

Best Regards,
Ron

[Podunkfla]

Many if not most big corporations care little about their workers any more than our President cares about the cannon fodder he sends to the front line. The Walmarts of the world only care about keeping the stockholders happy and the profits rolling in... That's just the way it is today. Unions and other grassroots organizations (like Wake Up Walmart) are the only venue the peons have got voice their greviances. This may not work very well, but it is working to some degree. What other choice does the common man have? Workers do have the ability to make big business change... All it takes is a large enough orgainzed effort by the workers. Which brings us back to the unions, which is nothing more than a group of organized workers. I think it will be interesting to see what happens to Walmart if they continue down the path they have chosen?

[madjack]

Brick, I agree with you about companies having no loyalty to their employees over the increase in profits for Wall Street and the fact that the unions or organization is the only thing to help the worker but unfortunately Unions have become just as bad as the businesses they are supposed to keep in check...I guess the fact that in my career as a blue collar worker all my dealings with unions have been negative, starting when I was 19 and was threatened by union folks onna job, to the 400 bucks the head of the local pipefitters and plumbers union wanted under the table forra book to waiting a day andda half to get my truck loaded...there just has to be a better way...but I sure don't have any idea what.....
madjack