How Long Do We Have?

[SteveH]

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

"A democracy is always temporary innature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

"A democracy will continue to existup
until the time that voters discover they
can vote them selves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority
always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the
public treasury, with the result that
every democracy will finally collapse
due to loose fiscal policy, which is
always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's
greatest civilizations from the beginning
of history, has been about 200 years."

"During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate,
the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those
citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms
of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now some where between the "complacency
and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with someforty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and
citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote,
then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

Pass this along to help everyone realize
just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

[Arne]

We are the Modern Romans. We are on the downhill slide, now. The people want the govenment to do everything for them. As a nation, we are pretty hollow with little substance. Greed drives us, not a national spirit. Ironically, our national spirit resurfaced for about 2 weeks after 9/11.

We have tried to be the world policeman, only to find out the world will not do what we tell them to. They look at us with little of our former respect, and more like a nation of fools led by a fool. One scary element is, they now know we are powerless to stop them....

Economically, we are passing the torch to Asia.

In short, we have lost our national identity. What follows is a link to a recent article which outlines our dilema. Unfortunately, I suspect this will mostly come to pass. While we worry about our buying our next big screen TV (or building our next trailer), 'they' are planning their next attack on our country.............

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031107E.shtml

[stuart_w]

Unless this European gravely misunderstands:

You're not a democracy - you're a REPUBLIC.

(Al'beit a republic elected by democratic processes - nevertheless, at a theoretical level..........)

[josephhanson]

SteveH, get over it, The Bush-Gore thing was two elections ago. What does Olson say about the Bush-Kerry election?

[SteveH]

Stuart,

If congress grants amnesty to everyone that walks accross our border, I really don't know what we'll be, or if we will even exist as a nation for long.

The thing is, the politicians, and I'm talking about both major parties, each want to be the one creditable for granting amnesty, if it is passed, so they can get the votes of the new "citizens".

If it does not make you sick, it should.

[SteveH]

Joe,

Read the whole post again....it's not about the election, it's about the state of our country and what will happen when and if the congress grants amnesty to the illegal imigrants.

[Arne]

Yes, it seems like every 5-8 years, we say: "okay, you guys can stay now that you are here, but no more"..... it's like a broken record.

[josephhanson]

I agree with the anti-amnesty portion of the message, it kinda got lost with the election part, I didn't see the relation. Sorry.
After 9/11 one would think illegal immigration would've been severely stiffled, but it looks as if it has been on the rise. How can there be national security with so many undocumented people running around (demanding rights).
When it is suggested there be a national ID everyone gets upset - afraid of "big brother".
We give out millions for homeland security, and this is still an issue.
And our own States are not making things better. Here in Indiana permits used to be review by the dept of building construction, now they are reviewed by the department of homeland security. This so we (Indiana) can show that we use our homeland security money and need more. The problem is (and is with other States) our homeland security is no better.
Again.....I strayed away from the message, sorry.

[Miriam C.]

Unless this European gravely misunderstands:

You're not a democracy - you're a REPUBLIC.

(Al'beit a republic elected by democratic processes - nevertheless, at a theoretical level..........)

Democratic Republic. Since we have representative Government we have indeed slowed our eventual decline into dictatorship. You see we do not each have a vote on every process, law and gimme. We must convince our represenative and the represenatives of other states that we should get a bigger share of the pie. This leads to infighting and slows the decline somewhat.

You see the founders of our country did not trust commoners to self rule.

Disclaimer = This is satire, and only somewhat serious.

[Dixie Flyer]

Well to answer you're basic question:

How Long Do We Have?

Not much.

[caseydog]

Well, I just couldn't resist.

I agree that we have become a 'Me" society, but when one group points to another, and says, "It's their fault", I have to shake my head.

It's not just the poor who "take" from the government. The middle class and the rich do to. One example would be urban sprawl. Who pays for those highways, that lead to the gated communities in the suburbs? Taxpayers. The same people who pay for Food Stamps for the poor. There are countless ways that all of us -- rich, poor and middle class -- benefit from government spending.

Which Americans have been seduced by the siren song of consumerism? Pretty much everyone. The difference is that some pay cash, and others run up credit-card debt -- and a few steal. No matter how you feed your addiction, it's still an addiction.

What causes our runaway government spending? Is it JUST growing programs for the poor? Does the invasion of Iraq play a part, or do those dollars spent not count. Every dollar spent by government is a dollar well spent in someone's eyes.

Who is the most apathetic, the poor person who gives up trying to find a job, or the guy who jets around the world, from beach to casino, having made his money the old fashioned way -- by inheriting it?

I have seen this theory on "Empires and Apathy" a dozen times on forums. People like it because it sums up the very complicated realities of history and life, and a few, easy to swallow paragraphs. No deep thinking or soul searching needed, just read this and vote Republican.

That, in and of itself is the ultimate apathy, because it is so easy to just read it and say, "Yeah, what he said", and then go on to ones daily routine of working and buying stuff -- or working for the purpose of buying stuff.

My biggest pet peeve is "Dogmatic Ideology", or the notion that one person or group of people have it all figured out, and the world's problems could be solved if we all jumped onboard with them.

Life and the Universe are complicated and constantly reminding us that we aren't as smart as we think we are. People have a hard time accepting this. Thats how ideologies get started. It's an attempt to make the unpredictable and uncertain realities of life make sense. We are looking for the magic formula for the ideal life.

The 2000 Presidential eclection was REALLY close. That tells me we need to put away the dogmatic ideologies and learn how to reach compromises. Bush was, in a way, right about one thng he said. A dictatorship would be easier. A democracy (yes, our "Republic" is a democratic institution) is a LOT of hard work. Why, because it is made up of people, and people just can't seem to see things exactly the same way. That means we can't always have things our own way. We learn that in the first grade, but seem to forget it as adults.

I lean to the left. But half the country leans to the right. And I have not met many people who agree with any party platform more than about 80 percent. That's reality. And, reality is where, as I get older, and hopefully wiser, I am TRYING to live.

<stepping off soapbox>

[Dewayne_Mellen]

More fun with snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

[Scooter]

We have a bureaucracy. Huge entities appointed (not elected) to rule and watch over us.

[Ira]

Steve, are you having problems with your wife these days?

ENOUGH with these political threads already! Enough is enough.

A lot of us don't agree with your view on the world, and never will--so what's your point?

This is really getting obnoxious.

[caseydog]

This is really getting obnoxious.

Posted just after I post up. I knew I shoulda kept my mouth shut.

CD