I’m just curious about firearms and camping

[MSG Hall]

Wow has this thread morphed… but that’s cool, that's what threads do. I would however, like to humbly make three points…

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1. is a man that has a million dollars rich? Is the money in the back is a “fact” that can it be disputed? A statistical fact alone means absolutely nothing… you have to have comparative statistics for a statistical fact to have any worth. If the same man with that million dollars in the bank has 1.5 million dollars in debt is he still rich? Comparative statistical facts.

Both sides use statistics and facts to bolster their arguments. I’ll give you another example… in my state over the last ten years there were 843 deaths of teenagers with handguns and last year there were only 76 requests for handgun registration. This “factual” statement is very misleading, by using facts from a ten year period and then a one years period in the same sentence it leads the reader to believe there are hundreds of unregistered handguns in the state… which has not been proven at all by this statement.

Ok, that was the first point… comparative statistical facts.

Here are some for you to digest. I didn’t search long, so this is will have to do…

Some Statistics from the USA

In 1999, statistics of accidental deaths in the United States.

• Car accidents- 23,487
• Drowning- 3,653
• Run over by cars- 2,987
• House fires- 1,736
• Poisoning- 1,530
• Falling- 567
• Accidental gun deaths- 542
• Machinery- 107
• Cut/pierced- 22

(Source: Hoyert DL, Arias E, Smith BL, Murphy SL, Kochanek, KD. Deaths: Final Data for 1999. National Vital Statistics Reports. 2001;49 ( 8 ).)

Between 1993-1999, gun deaths in the United States have declined 27%. (SOURCE: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/default.htm, WISQARS, National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, accessed March, 2002.)

In 1999, 58% of all gun total deaths were suicides, and 38% were homicides. (SOURCE: Hoyert DL, Arias E, Smith BL, Murphy SL, Kochanek, KD. Deaths: Final Data for 1999. National Vital Statistics Reports. 2001;49 ( 8 ).)

Facts based on comparative statistics with references…

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My second point… emotions were brought up; well this is an emotional topic for many. Now why is that?

Side one… Pro Gun… I want to protect myself, my family, my property……. “from” evil or those that would do evil to me and mine…

Side two… Anti Gun… with no guns, there would be no gun deaths. It isn’t that people are evil or do evil; it’s that the gun gives them the opportunity that they wouldn’t have without it.

Ok, I can see both sides… but if a single gun exists in the hands of a would-be evil doer, than I want and have a right to have one in mine. (that’s just me)

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Third comment…

Minds WILL be changed if God forbid, someone's daughter or spouse is killed by a gun

The gun doesn’t do the killing my friend; this statement makes me want to arm myself more, not less.

If God forbid, someone's daughter or spouse is killed in a car wreck… would you so adamantly lobby against owning cars? Or if they drown in a pool, should pools be ban?

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Last comment….

Every society at the time of their peaceful existence believes they are the epitome of society and things could not possible go wrong, not to us we are so enlightened.

Yet the gun lobby keeps bringing up this antiquated 2nd Amendment as its argument. Even though thousands of innocents are killed each year in this country--yet the 2nd Amendment argument is invoked as somehow a way to PROTECT Americans.

The second amendment is to ensure the rest of them… nothing more, nothing less. If the government controlled all the guns, they would control all the people… but no, the government couldn’t “take over” because we are so enlightened… things that make you go hummmmmm…

But my friends, I did not intent for this tread to head this directions and please don’t let a little philosophical difference of opinion hurt any friendships here, it’s just not worth that.

[Mike C.]

SFC Hall,

I agree with everything you say above, 100%.



Sure looks like you opened a can of worms, though.

For example, how did a conversation about guns, turn into
a conversation about sex?

Just remember....... SEX KILLS!!!!!!

[apratt]

Ditto SFC Hall!!

[caseydog]

A properly aimed 5CO lid with the correct amount of velocity would certainly offer some protection...

Hmmmm. I guess I do carry a weapon to campgrounds -- a #8 Griswold. PONG!

CD

[caseydog]

That's the beauty of concealed carry... makes you wonder... and also makes the bad guys wonder too...

If I was so inclined to be a "bad guy", I suppose I would change my tactics for roberry or whatever bad guy stuff I do. Knowing there are people out there with concealed wapons, I'd sneak up on them an hit them over the head with a chunk of steel, then do my bad guy stuff, instead of confronting them face to face.

What's my point?

No matter how well armed you are, the guy who is on "offense" always has an advantage over the guy on "defense", because the guy on offense knows when, where and how he's going to do his thing, while the guy on defense does not.

CD

[Camping Embers]

I firmly support MY right to bear arms, the rest of the Bozo's out there......I'm not so sure LoL

Legal, or not, I am going to carry the means to protect myself and my family. Note I am indeed legal with a CPP permit in Michigan. I do take it with me when camping, never had the need to draw it, but it is comforting to know that it is there if needed.

Being armed has saved me from a beating, or possibly being killed on one occasion. Early in the morning, around 1 am, at a rest stop along the freeway. The individual was hanging around the front of the restroom. I couldn't understand why he was still there when I was leaving, especially after my rather pungent defilement of the restroom, no mere mortal would have hung around there of his own free will. I left first, he followed. Non-hunters will not understand, but you can sense when you enter a preditor/prey situation. Hoping I was mistaken I heard him increase his pace rapidly to catch up with me. Deciding that if this really had to happen it would be on my terms, I moved off into the grass and to the back of a bench, so that it was tween us. My thought was that if he followed I would draw my small 5 shot .38 and put the laser dot on his chest as a last warning to go away. Our eyes locked and as he looked like he was making up his mind, I moved my hand up to my waist (my .38 was still concealed there under my shirt). Obviously he understood, made a grunt, put his eyes on the sidewalk in front of him and walked away. Interesting that he didn't go to a car, but walked into the woods. Giving a sigh of relief, I hoped that he had been scared at least as much as I was. Perhaps even enough to get another nocturnal activity.

Despite anyone's interpretation of the events, I was there and I know what his intent was. I am not going to sacrifice myself, or one of my loved ones no matter what an anti-gunnut feels about an armed population.

[Camping Embers]

Caseydog, I am one that respect syour opinion it's just that I disagree with it.

In Michigan the chemical level in sprays are limited by law, their effectiveness is limited. Having helped subdue some agitated people, I know that pepper spray and mace will not always stop someone that is enraged. A gun, thanks to the ridiculous over-portrayal of their power in the broadcast media, might make one pause and think, "Oh God!, He's got a gun!" Especially if a red laser dot appears on their chest. The idea is to NOT use it, but to be the one to survive the encounter if worse comes to worse.

Thought to consider, Considering that criminals ignore the gun laws already on the books. Why would "reasonable gun laws" make any difference?

[Miriam C.]

Good morning! I have moved this to Off Topic as it seems to be about camping and some other stuff.

A friendly reminder---everyone make nice please. Name calling and fighting will result in the name calling or fighting post being removed. Name calling or fighting to get a thread pulled is censorship and that is something I frown on a lot.

If you don't like the thread be considerate and don't read it.

[elmo]

Good morning! I have moved this to Off Topic as it seems to be about camping and some other stuff.

A friendly reminder---everyone make nice please. Name calling and fighting will result in the name calling or fighting post being removed. Name calling or fighting to get a thread pulled is censorship and that is something I frown on a lot.

If you don't like the thread be considerate and don't read it.

[Mike C.]

Welcome back !!!!! More to read and discuss.

[caseydog]

I'm done with this thread. Reason left the building several pages ago.

Besides, I need to get back to work on the Hillary for President campaign, so we can ban guns, raise taxes, hug terrorists and promote more abortions, as we America hating folks like to do.

If I meet some of you guys at a gathering -- don't shoot me, please.

CD

[martha24]

[caseydog]

I've gotten a few PM's from folks that seem to imply that I took an otherwise meaningful discussion downhill.

As hard as I tried to be the voice of reason and compromise early on in this thread, the hard-liners managed to drown out reason and compromise, as usual. So what the heck -- if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Go back and review the entire thread, and ALL my posts, and I think you will find that I am not the one who took the thread downhill. In a couple posts, I tried to bring the discussion back on topic of guns at campgrounds. But, it kept coming down to a "debate" over constitutional rights, and protecting self and family from all the bad guys out there.

Harvey and I had a good, well reasoned discussion going on, in the middle of a bunch of political trash-talk. We actually reached a consensus over that actual topic presented in the first post of the thread. Anyone notice that?

I also tried to explain why I don't carry a gun around, and more directly, suggest that MAYBE people don't need to carry a gun EVERYWHERE, such as at a TD gathering. That point always gets twisted in the minds of a lot of people who carry guns. They seem to think that their gun rights are under attack, and feel a need to argue with me -- posting a lot of questionable and annecdotal evidence to "prove" thier positions. I never suggested that anyone be banned from carrying at a campground. I just hoped people would stop and think about whether that really need to carry a gun everywhere they go. Maybe, just maybe, there are places where it is not necessary, or appropriate to exercise one's constitutional right to keep and bear arms. How does asking people to thoughtfully consider that point constitute an attack on one's rights?

I didn't lose my cool at the end -- I just didn't see any point in continuing to try to be a voice of reason in a thread that was already well off the rails.

CD[/i]

[sdtripper2]

Besides, I need to get back to work on the Hillary for President campaign,
so we can ban guns, raise taxes, hug terrorists and promote more abortions,
as we America hating folks like to do.

If I meet some of you guys at a gathering -- don't shoot me, please.

Sport @ future gatherings:
Will be looking for a white dog holding a martini glass at all future gatherings.
Three, Fifty, Seven in hand ... with intent to put misery out of suffering ~
You cross the line with Hillary hugging terrorists, raising my taxes,
while allowing more decisions for women.

[elmo]

I didn't lose my cool at the end -- I just didn't see any point in continuing to try to be a voice of reason in a thread that was already well off the rails.

That is when I would of stopped opening or posting on the thread, but that is just me!

SFC Hall wasn't that concerned about the derailing and he was the one that started it.