Anyone use hydro conversion on there cars?

[Tcurr]

Was looking at some information on hydro conversions and wondering if anyone has used any of them or has any tech input to offer.

Here is a link to one I found:
http://www.hydrogen-pro.com/

[Gerdo]

I was almost out of gas today so I filled my car up with water. It doesn't run so good. JK. Interesting idea. Sounds like snake oil.

[raprap]

Water and alcohol injection into the incoming gas (fuel) is known to be effective to increase power and fuel efficiency for very high compression piston pounders, however it led to increased corrosion due to the effects of water and alcohol on the lubrication (oil). It was also used during WWII in piston fighter aircraft to increase power on takeoff and at high altitude where intercoolers were impractical. I believe Saab and Crysler also experimented with water injection to cool incoming gas streams on turbocharged automobile engines that operated high high compressions but found intercoolers more effective because of increases engine maintainence.

The link listed could be a plausible system, but one must always remember the second law of thermodynamics, i.e. you can't get something for nothing.

Rap

[Cakefiend]

Seriously, do you want the science?

Systems like this claim to use some of the electricity from your alternator to split water into 'browns gas' - a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. This burns well - jewellers use these, google 'water torch'

The problem is that the energy that comes from burning the gas is the same as the energy required to split the water in the first place, so you need to draw as much power from the alternator as the fuel produces, not allowing for wasted heat. In other words, you can only get out what you put in.

If you used night tariff electricity to split water at home, and had a way to capture and compress the gas in your car, you could run your car off water, but as a battery, not a source of electricity.

More sites like this please, I could use the humour!

On the other hand, I really want these kind of books, I just like to pick holes in the science.

[Bobgorilla]

The navy uses a similar system to create O2 to breathe on submarines or course a nuclear reactor supplies power for the process, BTW this system is considered the single most dangerous system on a ship full of explosives, nuclear material, 4500 psi air, 3000 psi hydraulic and lots of nasty chemicals like torpedo fuel.

[raprap]

:lol: The navy uses a similar system to create O2 to breathe on submarines or course a nuclear reactor supplies power for the process, BTW this system is considered the single most dangerous system on a ship full of explosives, nuclear material, 4500 psi air, 3000 psi hydraulic and lots of nasty chemicals like torpedo fuel.

Nuclear Submarines have surplus power and use an alectrolysis to make oxygen and hydrogen out of water. As for hazards, hydrogen is possibly the most difficult to contain of all gasses mostly because it is teeny and gan effuse through most materials (including steel and plastic). When you donsider that hydrogen in air has the highest flammability in air at room temperature of any material (LEL-4%, UEL-96% by volume) it is a real hazard in any situation and since a submarine is in effect a can--its a severe hazaed.

However, in my read of this water injection system water is not reduced, it is a fogging and cooling agent that disperses the hydrocarbon fuel more effeciently in the cylinder and precools prior to compression. No where does it claim to make hydrogen gas directly.

BTW one of the major hazards with extremely hot fires (greater than about 3500 DegF) is hydrogen explosions when you spray water on the fire. The fire is hot enough to cleave it into its two components and the secondary explosion tends to make an bad condition intolerable.

Rap

[Bobgorilla]

Okay Rap, another question that I have about fuel cells, just how explosive will they be if involved in a crash?

[raprap]

Depends upon two things--first is the method of storage and the other is quantity available. If you're trying to contain hydrogen in quantity, there has to be a alternative to storage as a compressed gas. Cyrogenics (storage as a liquid like propane) is doubtful because H2 is a quantum gas and to store it as a liquid would take high pressure or extremely low temperatures (a few degrees absolute). It is possible to store hydrogen as a metal hydride (a kinda solution of hydrogen in a metal matrix) but the best one I know are alkaline or akaline earth metals that present a whole nother group of problems.

One of the methods for vehicles is to include a reformer. That a reactor that makes hydrogen from a hydrocarbon such as fuel oil, or a high temperature reaction of coal (in the form of coke) with water. Using a reformer the amount of hydrogen on hand is minimal as it is used by the fuel cell as it is generated. The problem with reforing is it does not reduce the carbon emission to the atmosphere.

Personally--my dream is for some type of storage, and if I were a betting man, i'd bet on some form of hydride. One that can be charged quickly and is controllable enough to generate the gas as it is used by the fuel cell. I've read about lithium hydrides a few years ago---but at that time problems existed as lithium is reactive & relatively expensive, and the recharging took time (e.g. several hours). Since one of the advantages to gasoline is that a filling is quick a several hour fuelling would not be considered advantageous.

Rap

[raprap]

Addendum

Of course I'd like a nuclear electric car--the whole concept of requiring refuelling only after a hundred or so round trips from Ohio to Sierra del Fluego sounds appealing to me.

Rap

[Bobgorilla]

I am correct in thinking that hydrogen disipates pretty quickly and that it probably only be the first few moments that you have to really worry about?

[raprap]

Yeppur--unless you have a pretty good quantity of hydrogen available or the storage system is good in a fire--IMHO another reason why metal hydrides are preferrable for mass hydrogen storage.

One must remember that many better minds than ours are actively working on this problem and be forewarned that some of them are accountants and attorneys. Remember one incompetant attorney can undo the work of one hunderd competant engineers

Rap

[Bobgorilla]

Well we know how responsible they been in the past ie: corvair, pinto, and explorer just to name a few.

[Podunkfla]

Yeppur--unless you have a pretty good quantity of hydrogen available or the storage system is good in a fire--IMHO another reason why metal hydrides are preferrable for mass hydrogen storage.

One must remember that many better minds than ours are actively working on this problem and be forewarned that some of them are accountants and attorneys. Remember one incompetant attorney can undo the work of one hunderd competant engineers

Rap

Hey Rap... What do you think of this guy's "discovery" that has been all over the news lately?

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007 ... altwa.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/11/can- ... d-as-fuel/

[raprap]

Interesting using radio frequency to generate hydrogen from water--a new method to dissassociate water into water and oxygen---but one must remember that radio frequency is energy and the system only works when energy is supplied--in the form of radio frequency. The burning is the result of hydrogen burning in air, and the stirling engine spins from the heat generated---no violation of the laws of thermodynamice here--no new theories broken or rules violated. You still don't get something from nothing.

What is different, and potentially applicable (exploitatable), is that there is a new alternative to generating hydrogen---energy (probably electricity), to rf energy (remember E=h*nu), to hydrogen and oxygen (chemical potential energy), to heat (energy), and finally to mechanical energy (spinning wheels).

BTW tuning the rf to attack cancer cells --only arouses my curiosity more than hydrogen generation from salt water. I mean what is the difference between cancer cells and normal ones that allows this phenomena.

Aside--I somehow feel that the rf here is microwave.

Rap

[Podunkfla]

Interesting using radio frequency to generate hydrogen from water--a new method to dissassociate water into water and oxygen---but one must remember that radio frequency is energy and the system only works when energy is supplied--in the form of radio frequency. The burning is the result of hydrogen burning in air, and the stirling engine spins from the heat generated---no violation of the laws of thermodynamice here--no new theories broken or rules violated. You still don't get something from nothing.

What is different, and potentially applicable (exploitatable), is that there is a new alternative to generating hydrogen---energy (probably electricity), to rf energy (remember E=h*nu), to hydrogen and oxygen (chemical potential energy), to heat (energy), and finally to mechanical energy (spinning wheels).

BTW tuning the rf to attack cancer cells --only arouses my curiosity more than hydrogen generation from salt water. I mean what is the difference between cancer cells and normal ones that allows this phenomena.

Aside--I somehow feel that the rf here is microwave.

Rap

Yeah... I was kinda thinking that it would take about as much energy to create the RF field as it would liberate hydrogen? You rarely get something for nothing. Nice hustle though... He'll prolly get a megabucks investor or two and retire to his new island in the Bahamas.