Now this is REALLY messed up...

[Kurt (Indiana)]

"Both #1 and #2 exist RIGHT NOW. not tomorrow, not after development, but today"

Jeff, I agree but are we equipped to save a huge amount "tomorrow"? The change over and retro-fit would take some time to save 90%.

I agree that these things need to be done as soon as possible.

Now I have to figure out a way to convert my '65 Mustang.

[madjack]

...some thoughts....France gets something like 90% of their electrical power from nukes...and I know, we are at least as smart as they are so, why can't we...
...there is X amount of oil available to the world...why are we not using ours...because the "master" plan of the powers that be(in the USA) is to use all of the rest of the worlds oil first and then use ours...
...grain based fuels are not the answer, you just can't raise enough grain to both feed the population(people and animals) and make fuel with it...
...it is also expensive since the only ones doing it, have to have a subsidy to doit economically...
...it is also not green because of the techniques that have to be used to raise the grain and process it, use/damage the ecology as much or more than conventional fuels. However, there is an emerging technology that is called cellulostic fuels that uses ANY organic matter, such as wood, wood by products, leaves, straw and such...it is a much better method of producing ethanol/biofuel than grain...
...as far as the girl in Saudi, I still say it is not our place to do anymore than possibly lodge a protest...should we reward them with arms sales...probably not but it is the way the gnomes in Zurich have ordered the world since time immemorial(SP?)........
madjack

[Miriam C.]

...as far as the girl in Saudi, I still say it is not our place to do anymore than possibly lodge a protest...should we reward them with arms sales...probably not but it is the way the gnomes in Zurich have ordered the world since time immemorial(SP?)........

I wonder Jack if NOW bothered to do what it says it stands for, if just maybe the world of women could not lodge the kind of protest that keeps these punishments from being so very extreme.

What do you think would happen if every woman in the free world said NO to oil for a day.

My point was that women in those countries, even Iran, are educated, some even here. We loose our own voice daily because we as a group abdicate to it to Washington and the world.

We do not have to bomb anyone to speak for human rights. We do not have to overthrow anyone to speak up for what is right. If all Americans send a voice against this the world will surly hear. I think it will have a tempering effect if not creat an environment for change.

Just my take.

[madjack]

...the way I see it is, we can't do much about much...we can stand on our own personal principles as best as we may but that is about as much as we can do as individuals...as far as the rest goes, we can do two things...first is conserve...it may or may not amount to much but it will help save us some money and the second is vote...CD is right about the 40% thing, this allows any organized fringe group to send the next GWB to office...vote for the Libertarians, vote for the "other" guy but VOTE...never in my studies of political history have we needed a viable 3rd party, centrists based candidate than we do now!!!!
madjack

[Podunkfla]

I wonder Jack if NOW bothered to do what it says it stands for, if just maybe the world of women could not lodge the kind of protest that keeps these punishments from being so very extreme.

What do you think would happen if every woman in the free world said NO to oil for a day.

A lot of the inequities in the world could be changed if the affected groups would band together and demand change? Even here in the US women are still paid much less for doing the same work as men. Why? Because they put up with it. If they flat refused to do the jobs for less than men they could change this unfair situation. Same goes for the poor schmucks working at Walmart for paupers wages... If Walmart couldn't hire anyone for less than a living wage they would have to change. The sad fact is things only change for the better when we MAKE them change. And, The even sadder fact is most of the downtrodden peons of the world are so demoralized and disenfranchised by the powers that be they are afraid to take a stand. The greedy assholes of the world only do what they do because we let them do it to us.

[Podunkfla]

never in my studies of political history have we needed a viable 3rd party, centrists based candidate than we do now!!!!

Man... I'll second, third, and fourth that! It is truly sad in America we let a minority of people elect these idiots... THEN we complain about what a bunch of self-centered immoral twits we have in office? Like Pogo said many years ago: 'we-have-seen-the-problem-and-it-is-us'

[PaulC]

Here's the latest on that Poor Woman.

From correspondents in Riyadh
November 25, 2007 07:21am
A WOMAN in Saudi Arabia sentenced to six months in jail and 200 lashes despite being gang raped has confessed to adultery, the justice ministry said today as it tried to fend off mounting criticism.

Despite being sexually assaulted by seven men who kidnapped her with a male companion at knifepoint, the unidentified 19 year-old woman was sentenced in November 2006 to 90 lashes.

The judge sentenced her for being in a car with a man who was not her relative, a taboo in the conservative Muslim kingdom which imposes strict segregation of the sexes.

But her story hit international headlines last week when her sentence was increased to six months in jail and 200 lashes after she spoke to the media.

The justice ministry said that the woman had owned up to having an extramarital affair with the man in the car.

"She admitted to ... exchanging sinful relations,'' the justice ministry said, adding the woman was in state of undress with the man in the car before the attack took place.

The woman and her alleged lover remained quiet about the attack, which was only reported to the authorities several months later when the woman's husband received an email from an unidentified source informing him of the affair.

"She admitted to what happened and the husband then reported the incident three months after it happened,'' the justice ministry said, adding it wanted to correct the "largely incorrect'' details published in the media about the case.

The ministry also stressed the Saudi judicial system was based on Islamic law derived from the holy Koran and that a court ruling in the kingdom was only made after both sides in a case were given a fair and balanced hearing.

The men were initially sentenced to one to five years in jail, but those terms were also toughened on appeal to between two and nine years.

A rape conviction carries the death penalty in Saudi Arabia, but the court did not impose it due to the "lack of witnesses'' and the "absence of confessions,'' the justice ministry said.

The woman's husband told local media that they would appeal, even though the judge had warned that the sentence could be increased again if she loses the appeal.

The justice ministry noted that the law gives the right of appeal, but warned that ``resorting to the media'' could have "a negative effect on the other parties in the case''.

The court dealing with the case revoked the licence of the woman's lawyer, who has also been summoned by the justice ministry to appear before a disciplinary panel next month.

The red editing is mine. I know you have all gone off on a tangent to the original posting here but I thought that you might like to know that they also have people who hide the truth over there as well.
And, Miriam, I am not condoning the abuse of women in any way, shape or form. I think it's disgusting that this type of law even exists in this day and age.
Cheers
Paul

[caseydog]

What do you think would happen if every woman in the free world said NO to oil for a day.

Hmmmm. What is every woman in America said "no" to sex until our foriegn policy changed to protect women in backwards nations.

I can just see the policies-a-changin'.

CD

[Miriam C.]

My dear men of the world. Sex should never be used as a weapon for change unless the abuser is the one from whom it is being with held.

Paul, it is the Ministry of Justice, one man, who increased the punishment and you bet people lie. In a Muslim country where this man can divorce his wife he chose to fight her sentence. Would you witness against your fellow rapist if the death penalty was the result?

Perhaps we should all remember that the worlds fastest growing religion can and will out breed us. What we do not fight today our granddaughters will suffer.

The womens suffrage movement was fought by women but won by men. Men and women of the church btw. Where are the public marches... The candle lit vigils in Hollywood. The bell ringings on campus.

Paul I know you are not defending this law, but you have daughters and grandchildren. Soon, as Canada, has done the world will do. Religion will be in charge of Domestic disputes and women. Misogyny will rule those who allow it.

[caseydog]

I just read this article -- it seems Saudi Arabia is one of the countries where most of the foreign fighters in Iraq come from...

Most of the 9-11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, too...

With friends like these, who needs enemies.

Published on Thursday, November 22, 2007 by Reuters
Saudis and Libyans Top Foreign Fighters in Iraq: Report
by Missy Ryan

BAGHDAD - About 60 percent of the foreign militants fighting in Iraq have come from U.S. allies Saudi Arabia and Libya, unidentified U.S. military officials said in a newspaper report on Thursday.

The New York Times said the information was found in documents uncovered in a U.S. military raid on an insurgents’ camp near Sinjar, in northwest Iraq near the Syrian border, in September.

Material seized at the camp, believed to be used by a cell responsible for smuggling the majority of foreign fighters into Iraq, showed the home towns of more than 700 foreign militants who entered Iraq since August 2006, the newspaper said.

A total of 305 of the foreign fighters listed in the documents, or 41 percent, were from Saudi Arabia. Another 137, or 18 percent, were Libyan. Yemenis were the third largest group, the newspaper said.

Syrians — via whose country many fighters are suspected of reaching Iraq — made up 8 percent of the individuals listed.

© Reuters 2007.

[Laredo]

That "updated story" stinks to high heaven to me.

[Dewayne_Mellen]

Why don't we have one of these at every waste treatment plant and landfill?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

[Bad-Dawg]

As for "Nucular" being clean... Give me a break! Have you been to the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in Washington State? Sure, we have an ability to contain the waste but this government we suffer under lies about the facts and hasn't been able to come up with a single plan for storing what are highly dangerous waste products for more than 50 years. All adding nukes to our country will do is pass the buck on to our progeny. Not only that, but it is massively more expensive than any other fuel known too us, and the only reason it looks cheap at all right now is that the government we suffer under is avidly trying to subsidize it with your taxes. Yet another giveaway for the big energy folks that control the whitehouse...

As for other alternatives, there are many that are effective, wind is a good one. There is a nice wind energy plant atop the local Cuyamaca mountains run by a Kumayaay reservation and the local power company (Sempra Energy/SDG&E) refuses to give them grid access and to buy it from them, so it sits idle. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that is criminal...

I would step up and buy an electric car to replace my Civic tomorrow but there are non available. Why? There is no money in maintenance for them. Fact is, Electric cars were efficient in 1906. They are more efficient now, but there is no oil profits, mechanic shops, Etc...

And Fuel Cell Vehicles? Yes Sign me up! I definitely need a car that costs 1 million dollars to produce and is so highly inefficient in transferring energy as to make it more wasteful than a Slugburban!

More use of trash to energy would be a good thing. I mean just the gasses coming off the sewage plants could be useful to run a generator, ask the folks at Harris Ranch and Foster Farms. All they are doing is digesting waste, and they get free electricity out of it, and a reduction in stench.

And for that poor girl in SA. It's a different world over there, I know, I lived there for a while in the late '80s. As sad as it is, it just is, and is a daily occurance. There is nothing we can do about it. After I was there, they suspended beheadings as there was a lot of Americans present (Bush war1), but right after the newsies left thy had about 1100 in a months time. A good friend was caught out in Riyadh and dragged to watch over 100 at one time. I got caught in that net once, and I was really appalled by the cheering as they struck the head from some poor starving kid that got caught stealing food in the souk. It's a different world, but they really don't mess around.

I sometimes wonder if we could learn a lesson from them. Case in point: While my folks were living in Jordan in the Mid "80s, I went to visit them and there was a jewelery store robbery, and the robbers killed the owner. These to guys were caught, tried, convicted, sentenced to death and executed by firing squad publicly all in about 3 weeks. It was the first non political murder in 40 years, and there hasn't been one since... And BTW I am against the death penalty, not because its barbaric, because it's too expensive and not reversible. I would be willing to bet that if it was always a public event, there would be a heck of a lot less people here doing things that could lead them to a public firing squad...


OK, Ill shut up now.

[Ira]

I can't believe I haven't visited this thread for so long!

1) I appreciate Laredo's explanation. (Thanks!)

2) I have a little disagreement with Glenn about Chavez, but that's a minor point. (We really don't give a crap about him, but the guy just won't shut up, so what choice do we have but to respond?)

3) I always intensely read Brick's posts, but with that new Xmas avatar of his, he scares me.

4) Support Israel with lots of money and arms, and let them do our fighting. All of the ME countries hate them anyway, so what do we have to lose?

[caseydog]

4) Support Israel with lots of money and arms, and let them do our fighting. All of the ME countries hate them anyway, so what do we have to lose?

You wouldn't be at all biased, now, would you?

We already support them with lots of money and arms. And, they have nukes -- well, not officially, but they do.

Israel is our friend, now, but I don't trust them. If it were in their best interest for us to get nuked out of existence, they would let it happen without remorse. Just my own opinion, but Israel has a long history of looking out for themselves. Of course, so do we. If it were in our best interest for them to get nuked out of existence, who knows what might happen.

At least Isreal has a representative in our legislature, Senator Joe Leiberman. I think we deserve one in theirs.

Of course, speaking of religious nut-jobs, here in the US there are some who want "Armageddon" to happen in the ME so Jesus will come back and take them to heaven to watch the rest of us burn in hell. Not much different than the Islamic nut-jobs, IMO.

CD (that ought to get some reactions, eh?)