Bring on the Bombs

[Kevin A]

CD,
Something I have always found interesting about the bible is that people can and will use passages from it to support just about any point they wish to convey. Your points here are no exception. In most of these situations, if one were to actually read the full context of said passages it would become clear that these passages have been completely misinterpreted.

[caseydog]

Everything you quote is from the Old Testament i.e. written before Jesus, whereas the principle that permeates the New Testament is one of forgiveness and reconciliation through God's love. "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Jesus said a lot about forgiveness, love, and turning the other cheek. Fundamentalist Christians seem to like the Old Testament stuff better.

That's the point. In the eyes of fundamentalists and extremists, the Bible and the Quoran are weapons of mass destruction.

It's not the Quoran or the Bible that are the problem. It's people turning off their brains and buying into religious dogma.

CD

[caseydog]

CD,
Something I have always found interesting about the bible is that people can and will use passages from it to support just about any point they wish to convey. Your points here are no exception. In most of these situations, if one were to actually read the full context of said passages it would become clear that these passages have been completely misinterpreted.

I agree, people do that all the time. But how did I misinterpret those Bible quotes. They say what they say, and when you read them in context, they say the same thing.

Leviticus, in particular is one whacked out, extreme doctrine. Just as psychotic as any Islamic dogma on the books, IMO.

I read the Bible, cover to cover, with multiple versions and a concordance on hand to cross reference. It took about a year to do it. I estimate that maybe 10-percent of Christians have done that. I think I got the context thing covered.

I wish more Christians would actually sit down and read the Bible. They might be surprised at what is in it.

I bet that most of the Muslims in Sudan who are calling for the death of this teacher over a Teddy Bear have not read the Quoran, either. They are being led around in ignorance.

I'm not equating Christian fundamentalists in America to the barbaric fundamentalists that have become so influential in Arab countries, just to be clear. Our extremists are angels in comparison to guys like Osama bin Laden.

I'm just saying that it's not a book that causes this kind of behavior. It's people choosing to be evil and hateful that makes this stuff possible. No matter what a book says, we still have a conscience and a freewill.

CD

[Miriam C.]

This is good, too. When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

THUMP! Now why is it CD that you do not want to be thumped with Bible but do not hesitate to thump the rest of us.

The above quote from a woman's perspective, who just happens to be Christian. You are talking about a time when slavery abounded and daughters were sold (as they are now in many countries) as slaves. Think about this: If the man who buys her and sleeps with her he is honor bound to treat her as a wife. If his son sleeps with her she is his daughter. You are talking about a slave becoming a family member if she is taken---Why is that. Perhaps the writer of the law recognizes that slaves have no choices and seeks to protect the woman slave in a way no other culture has.

Yes it is barbaric but slavery is---isn't it. As to the New Testament---how many times did Jesus set the example for others to liberate women?

Did he stone the woman at the well? Did he give in to Martha and send Mary to the kitchen?

You are right about it being people and it is the same with Muslim extremist. They do not represent all Muslims anymore than they represent all men.

You do realize some lay all this on the heads of Men in general, right????

[caseydog]

Uh oh. I made the huge mistake of posting an unpopular opinion.

In 1994, I got a call from the pastor of my church, and he told me that I had been selected by the board of elders, and approved by the church council to be an Elder. I was honored -- and at the same time, felt under-qualified. That is when I decided to really read the Bible, cover-to-cover, and really dig deep to understand what I was reading.

That's when I discovered that there is a lot more to Chritianity than Christmas and Easter. I also formed some opinions that do not set well with a lot of my fellow Christians.

I didn't "thump" anyone. I merely pointed out that there are plenty of laws in the Bible that can be, and at one time were, used against women. That's not an attack on Christianity. That's just a statement of fact.

The Bible is what it is. What people chose to do with it is a matter of freewill. It's been used to justify some horrendous things over the centuries since it was assembled by the Council at Nicea under the rule of Emperor Constantine. The Bible's history is another thing that is fascinating, but not well known by it's believers.

As a book, it is neither good nor evil. Only people can make it one or the other.

If this offends anyone, don't be so quick. If you think about it, I'm not that far off from some of the stuff Jesus himself talked about. He was pretty critical of the religious establishment of his day, and they didn't like it. In fact, they killed him over it. I guess that, if the worst that happens to me is that some folks get mad at me, I can't complain.



CD

[Creamcracker]

Uh oh. I made the huge mistake of posting an unpopular opinion.

In 1994, I got a call from the pastor of my church, and he told me that I had been selected by the board of elders, and approved by the church council to be an Elder. I was honored -- and at the same time, felt under-qualified. That is when I decided to really read the Bible, cover-to-cover, and really dig deep to understand what I was reading.

That's when I discovered that there is a lot more to Chritianity than Christmas and Easter. I also formed some opinions that do not set well with a lot of my fellow Christians.

I didn't "thump" anyone. I merely pointed out that there are plenty of laws in the Bible that can be, and at one time were, used against women. That's not an attack on Christianity. That's just a statement of fact.

The Bible is what it is. What people chose to do with it is a matter of freewill. It's been used to justify some horrendous things over the centuries since it was assembled by the Council at Nicea under the rule of Emperor Constantine. The Bible's history is another thing that is fascinating, but not well known by it's believers.

As a book, it is neither good nor evil. Only people can make it one or the other.

If this offends anyone, don't be so quick. If you think about it, I'm not that far off from some of the stuff Jesus himself talked about. He was pretty critical of the religious establishment of his day, and they didn't like it. In fact, they killed him over it. I guess that, if the worst that happens to me is that some folks get mad at me, I can't complain.



CD

You miss the point there's equally a number of quotes against the actions of men. The Old Testament Laws were not "against" women they were "against" (your word) actions in society that could have destroyed the very society that the laws were meant to preserve. Although they seem and are very extreme from our perspective they were significant in their day and established normative paterns of behavior, standards of health and the prevention of disease. The context is that of the people, place and time that they were established and that cannot be ignored. Your views don't "offend" they just perpetuate that which is mention above. Non-contextual interpretation.
Philip+

[caseydog]

But Phillip, I do understand the context. I do understand the times.

Let me ask you this: In what context would you be comfortable with a man selling his adolescent daughter to another adult man?

I can't even imagine that rules governing the sale of one's teenage daughter to an adult man for him to own, marry, take as a concubine, or give to his son, could possibly be a good things -- in any context.

We have shunned this kind of thinking in modern Western culture and religion, even though it is in our Bible. The kind of people who promote terrorism and consider the naming of a Teddy Bear after a profit to be punishable by death want to go back to this kind of barbarism. We reject it -- they embrace it.

Imagine if some Christian leader wanted to bring back the stoning of women who are raped within the city walls? We'd call him a nutcase. We wouldn't stand for it, even though you can find just such a law in our Bible.

That's my point. Any religion CAN become a tool for terrible things, if the people follow deranged leaders instead of listening to their hearts and minds.

And, I'm not suggesting that one should judge the entire Bible by a handful of verses. I am merely pointing out that these verses exist. I really do suggest that people read the entire thing. There is a lot of good information and wisdom to be found. But, there are things in there that will make one very uncomfortable, too.

CD

[Miriam C.]

Interpretive reading at its finest. CD I only give you a gender central view to give you some perspective. Daughters were sold and are sold today. The verses are in fact a protection for what was common practice at the time. You see them as negative and others see them as progressive for the era.

Truth is most groups have a think pattern and can be led to a negative or positive direction given the mindset of the person most powerful, be it by force or manipulation.

When you look for the negative you will surely find it in man's (womans) writings.

[caseydog]

Well, I don't agree, but I do understand, and as always, I respect and appreciate your comments, Miriam.

CD

[Miriam C.]

Well, I don't agree, but I do understand, and as always, I respect and appreciate your comments, Miriam.

CD

Ditto CD.

[madjack]

FYI, the lady in question has been pardoned by the Sudanese president and turned over to the British Embassy...she will be getting the heck out as soon as possible .............
madjack

[caseydog]

FYI, the lady in question has been pardoned by the Sudanese president and turned over to the British Embassy...she will be getting the heck out as soon as possible .............
madjack

I kinda figured that some kind of deal would be struck and she'd slip out of Sudan somehow. I'm glad it happened.

I wonder what the next international outrage will be? I wonder if they know about my rat?

CD

[Miriam C.]

FYI, the lady in question has been pardoned by the Sudanese president and turned over to the British Embassy...she will be getting the heck out as soon as possible .............
madjack

Amazing what some international pressure can do. I really hope she made it out of the country before the news was released.

[Creamcracker]

But Phillip, I do understand the context. I do understand the times.

Let me ask you this: In what context would you be comfortable with a man selling his adolescent daughter to another adult man?

I can't even imagine that rules governing the sale of one's teenage daughter to an adult man for him to own, marry, take as a concubine, or give to his son, could possibly be a good things -- in any context.

We have shunned this kind of thinking in modern Western culture and religion, even though it is in our Bible. The kind of people who promote terrorism and consider the naming of a Teddy Bear after a profit to be punishable by death want to go back to this kind of barbarism. We reject it -- they embrace it.

Imagine if some Christian leader wanted to bring back the stoning of women who are raped within the city walls? We'd call him a nutcase. We wouldn't stand for it, even though you can find just such a law in our Bible.

That's my point. Any religion CAN become a tool for terrible things, if the people follow deranged leaders instead of listening to their hearts and minds.

And, I'm not suggesting that one should judge the entire Bible by a handful of verses. I am merely pointing out that these verses exist. I really do suggest that people read the entire thing. There is a lot of good information and wisdom to be found. But, there are things in there that will make one very uncomfortable, too.

CD

I'm not sure how you jump to this question, and I don't want to prolong this thread since it's a "busman's holiday" for me however in summary------

I would not be comfortable in any context because I was brought up in the moral culture of the 20th Century western civilization. However my point is that for those people, 6th - 1st century BC it was acceptable and that was their cultural norm. So the context is for them not us.
To put it in simpler terms paraphrasing a certain movie ---
"A long, long time ago, in a country far far away" things were very different and so you have to be careful when you quote something because none of us can fully understand the context -- Time/Place/Culture. Using the Bible a la carte is (excuse the pun) a fruitless pursuit that is intellectually bankrupt.
Philip+

[Creamcracker]

MJ's advice on another thread in Off Topic is well taken -- and as I mentioned above I will not prolong the thread. I get paid for lecturing on this stuff anyway! I really do want to relax reading about teardrops rather than shedding them!