Oil Futures hit $100 a Barrel for the First Time Ever

[Fenlason]

how come they "can't" build cars that get better mileage?

They can. But you won't buy them (or at least the average motorist won't).

Compare your 76 Subaru (first) with a base 2008 Impreza (second):
Engine, cc: 1600, 2500 +56%
Weight, pounds: 1885, 3060 +60%
Length, in: 157.5, 180.3 +14%
Height, in: 54.7, 58.1 +6%
Width, in: 59.4, 68.5 +15%

So the weight's gone up 60% (partly because it's a bigger car, but also because it's safer) and the frontal area's gone up 22%, though that's offset by about the same reduction in drag coefficient.

If you want to see just how much bigger your vehicle is today, just look at the same comparison between your 76 Subaru and a current car that you might consider 'tiny', a Honda Fit/Jazz:
Engine, cc: 1600, 1500 -7%
Weight, pounds: 1885, 2430 +29%
Length, in: 157.5, 157.4 +/-0%
Height, in: 54.7, 60.0 +10%
Width, in: 59.4, 66.2 +11%

Yup, that 'tiny' Fit is a bigger car in almost every way - I bet like me, you wouldn't have guessed that it was the same length as the sedan Subaru.

Here in Yurp we can get cars one size below the Fit (so about the size of a 70s Civic) and a friend uses a diesel one for a 25 mile commute where he's getting 52-54 mpg (in US gallons, measured on complete tankfuls).

Andrew

Sorry Andrew I missed your post. [maybe you were writing while I was.]

I knew my Subaru was small... definately smaller than a current Impreza.

but thank you for the numbers. Newer cars or at least probably most of them are safer than my 70's coupe. The new cars last longer also.. yet I do not know if that affects the weight.

I strongly suspect that the Prius is sportier than my old Subaru... but that car and the Smart car is marketed to those that mileage is an important factor... or is it just so they can appear to care?? [I don't know]

Here in the state of Maine.. we can't buy the smaller diesels air quality issues..

glenn

[MarksMG]

I was reading an article a few weeks ago about the Smart Car. It was slated to get in the 50+ mpg range. By the time they got done with all of the changes required for safety and increase in hp so the American buyer would be interested it is now down in the mid 30 mpg range. Only 1 or 2 mpg less than the new Honda's and Toyota's. I was really interested in one since I drive around 90 miles per day to work and back, but my PT gets 28 with the top up and 27 with it down. I can not justify spending much money to only increase 6 or 7 mpg's. The Mini does better than that on gas but the price for it keeps it out of the running since i wear a car out in about 6 years. Even used they have a very high resale value. Oh well I will keep driving the PT and regetting the day I sold the Nissan Sentra that I had in college that got 44 mpg. That was in 1986.

[Jim540]

Here's something else that a lot of people don't think about. To make the newer vehicles run the way the older ones did ( i.e. as quick and powerful ) and to meet the new emisions they have to increase the displacement of the engines to compensate for the engines being chocked down by the controls that are supposed to make the air cleaner. I know on class 8 diesels ( semi tractortrailer rigs ) all of the manufacturors in this country have had to go up in displacement to get the same power output. The down side is less fuel economy and higher operating temperatures. The engines that I work on have EGR valves, EGR coolers, pressure differential sensors, intake temperature sensors, exhaust gas temperature sensors, variable venturi turbos and a host of electronic controls to keep it all working. The engines produced in 2007 and later have to have a particulate trap on them to catch the crud that comes out of the exhaust because of the EGR system. What I am getting at is the new engines have become very complicated and sometimes difficult to running correctly.

[starleen2]

OK, here is the deal, Either you make your own gasoline to go in your gasoline powered vehicle or pay the price! There are plans for a steam powered engine out there – make one and drive it around and screw with them all – or better still, buy a diesel and run it off of bio-diesel made from Junk or other materials. We pay for the convenience of fueling up. I say make your own and be free – still I’ll be in the line at the pump – it only adds about a few dollars more to the tank. Maybe I’ll talk to them “shiners down the road for a little bit of their de-natured fuel, without the “de”

[angib]

I understand VW Polo diesel gets 60-70 mpg, but not available here. I suspect it is about the same size as the original rabbit. That's better than a Prius.

There's a special version of the diesel Polo, the 'Bluemotion', that gets 74mpg combined mileage in UK government tests, which is indeed better than the Prius that gets 'only' 66mpg. The Polo's highway mileage is 88mpg!

But beware these are measured using British gallons that are 20% bigger than US gallons, so that Polo mileage drops to 62mpg combined or 74mpg highway in US gallons.

Andrew

[Jim540]

angib, I wish that we had the option of diesels in this country like Europe does. I really like diesels with their power, durability and fuel economy. Over here the Feds have dictated that we use ultra low sulfer diesel fuel in all diedels produced after 2007. I guess good for the environment but bad on the engines. When they went to the ultra low sulfer fuel they removed some of the lubricant. What this means if you run an older diesel you need to use a fuel additive to replace some of the lubrcant. Even having to do that I would still be happy to have diesel powered vehicles.

[caseydog]

could be because your old subaru, in relative terms, spewed all sorts of greenhouse gasses, had few emmission and safety systems that are standard in new cars. Also I suspect it did not have power windows, seats, locks, etc that are now "standard" and expected fare even in the most utilitarian vehicle. All of the safety and emmission systems also take power to run and add weight. So while they may only get a bit better MPG, new cars are more efficient (and for the most part you can count on it running every day with little more than keeping it filled with gas and oil).

Great points.

To make small cars more comfortable and give them the features people expect in all cars, not just luxury cars, you end up adding weight.

I've owned two Miatas. They weighed in at 2,400 pounds. The engineers made weight a relatively high priority, so the car would handle like a true, small English roadster. The Miata was patterned after the old Lotus Elan, and as such, handling was more important than luxury. Consequently, my Miatas were not quite to ride in, sounded a bit tinny when you closed the doors, and were fairly minimal in a lot of ways.

Miatas are niche cars. That kind of minimalism doesn't cut it in the mainstream markets.

[caseydog]

I understand VW Polo diesel gets 60-70 mpg, but not available here. I suspect it is about the same size as the original rabbit. That's better than a Prius.

There's a special version of the diesel Polo, the 'Bluemotion', that gets 74mpg combined mileage in UK government tests, which is indeed better than the Prius that gets 'only' 66mpg. The Polo's highway mileage is 88mpg!

But beware these are measured using British gallons that are 20% bigger than US gallons, so that Polo mileage drops to 62mpg combined or 74mpg highway in US gallons.

Andrew

The Bluemotion Polo would be 50-State legal here. There are rumors of it coming here, but that's all I have heard. If prices go high enough, VW could bring it over fairly easily.

BMW will be bringing "AdBlue" diesel versions of the 3-series and X5 to the states, and they will be 50-State legal.

Mercedes already has "BlueTec" diesel versions of the E-Class, R-Class, ML-Class, and GL-Class available here.

New diesel versions of the Jetta, and possibly Golf will be Bluemotion cars, so they will be 50-State legal.

The quip around the auto-magazine circles is that "Blue" is the new "Green."

CD

[caseydog]

Here is a snippet from a Paul Krugman op/ed that applies to the topic of this thread...

"Start with the soaring price of oil. Unlike the oil crises that followed the Yom Kippur War and the overthrow of the shah of Iran, this crisis wasn’t caused by events in the Middle East that disrupted world oil supply. Instead, it had its roots in Asia.

It’s true that the global supply of oil has been growing sluggishly, mainly because the world is, bit by bit, running out of the stuff: big oil discoveries have become rare, and when oil is found, it’s harder to get at. But the reason oil supply hasn’t been able to keep up with demand is surging oil consumption in newly industrializing economies - above all, in China.

Even now, China accounts for about only 9 percent of the world’s demand for oil. But because China’s oil demand has been rising along with its economy, in recent years China has been responsible for about a third of the growth in world oil consumption.

As a result, oil at $100 a barrel is, in large part, a made-in-China phenomenon."

[H@nk]

I don't have the knoledge you all have, but I read some where, in France is over 75% of the cars diesel. Half of the country is powered by nukes.
When I drive from the south of the Netherlands to the north over about 300 KM I see in the "polder"a lot of windmills, they are produicing energy. All that windmills delevering electric power to only one middle great city of about 70.000 citizens. In total.
The Smart, made by Swatch and Mercedes has only a lifetime from the engine for about 40 K KM, then it needs a replacement. A college of me had a Smart and drove with it to Italy, On the way back, after 2.5K KM the gearbox and an other part in the engine died. So the Smart is a nice car for the short distance, but not for the long run.
The FIAT has a more powerfull engine than the Polo. Commonrail technics and more efficient. BTW, the Spanish SEAT has the same components as the VW, because it's the same brand, only the SEAT is cheaper. They have also every modell powered by diesel. Most European cars have diesel engines.
I hope I don't kill this treat, it is very interesting

[caseydog]

Yes, Seat is owned by Volkswagen Audi Group (VAG). Seat Diesels were dominant in Barcelona last time I was there.

Of the smaller cars in Europe, the Polo has the easiest path to the US. Of course, Toyota, Honda and Nissan have a full range of small to micro cars that sell in left-hand-drive in Yurp.

Over here, Ford has Mazda to call on for really small cars, and GM already sells the Aveo, made by Suzuki.

As for Smart cars longevity, I don't know about the 40K life-span, but that sounds hard to swallow. I do know that these cars are NOT designed for long trips on roads like our Interstate Highways in the States. They are really meant for urban commuting -- for people moving.

[H@nk]

Don't know about the Le Mans series in the US of A, but the last time, last year, I was at the racing circuit of Le Mans in France, there where 2 Audi diesels and 1 peugeot diesel.
This year, 2008, they are planning to race with a bio-diesel.The diesels are as fast as the gas cars, but they sound like nothing. Like a new sawing machine.
As a gas car, like Ferrari or Porsche, or TVR or Spyker,or Corvette is passing by, you get real nice feelings in your stumach.
But the diesels are strong(power) and consuiming less fuel then the gas cars.
Once I owned a VOLVO 940 Estate, chiptuned on LPG, 211 HP, and together with a VW Passat Turbo diesel I had a nice race. That thing was almost to quick for me. There are a lot of chiptuning factories here in Holland and even more in Germany.

[Classic Finn]

Polo is the Spanish Made poor mans VW Golf..


Isnt there a song that goes Roll Out The Barrels, Were having a Barrel of Fun.

Saudi,s sing that everytime they get money from the rest of the world.

Classic Finn

Have you folks ever heard the engines of the cars that Russians Drive?

The word PutinPutinPutin Putin... comes up everytime.. try it but say it real fast.. there you,ll start to hear what a Russian Car engine begins to sound like.

[H@nk]

Not only Saudi's, have you heard what profit the oil companies made last year

[angib]

By chance I was just reading an article about Rudolf Diesel: a strange man - he died after falling (or being pushed?) from a ferry in 1913, on his way from Germany to Britain to supply diesel technology for submarines!

Two interesting snippets from the article - 1981 was the peak year for diesel cars in the US and in that year 10% of all GM cars sold were diesel and 78% of all Mercedes sold in the US were diesel. Suprising.

Andrew