Something new to wonder about when you buy gasoline...

Things that don't fit anywhere else...

Something new to wonder about when you buy gasoline...

Postby caseydog » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:06 pm

Common glitch at pump adds to gas costs, also cheats station

By MICHAEL GORMLEY
The Associated Press
Saturday, April 26, 2008; 10:19 AM

ALBANY, N.Y. -- Angry about the price of gas? Just imagine paying for gas you don't get. Some alert consumers have noticed it over the years: A pump that seems to hesitate a second when the lever is squeezed. Anywhere from 2 to 6 cents tick off before the rush of gasoline starts. That's what happens with a common, hard to diagnose and mostly ignored problem with the "check valve," which is supposed to make sure gas flows at the same time the price meter starts.

But even if your gas pump works, it can still be off as much as $5 for every fill up. Tests by local regulators allow a pump to charge as much as 6 cents more than the gas delivered in a five-gallon test.

Don't blame the gas guys. Even consumer advocates say retailers may be losing as often as consumers and no one appears able to rig the meters. But the small "check valve" at the end of the multibillion dollar industry just wears out, and often goes unnoticed for months.

Regulators' records show short staffing, particularly for financially struggling counties that try to inspect pumps every six months, but too often don't even meet the one-year requirement in states like New York.

Federal standards require all gas pumps to start pumping gas as soon as the price meter starts, said Ken Butcher of the National Institute of Standards of Technology, part of the U.S. Commerce Department.

Bob Wolfram knew something was wrong when the pump he used in Davenport, Iowa, showed he put two more gallons of gas into his tank than the tank holds.

"I was low, but it wasn't negative," said Wolfram, a 54-year-old engineer.

He reported it to a consumer Web site then took it to the government regulators, who acted promptly. But even then, the test showed the pump was only off a quart.

"I just kind of said, `What will they do next?'" Wolfram said.

Correcting the problem depends on alert, well-informed consumers like Wolfram. It also depends on honest retailers who choose to pass along reports to regulators who must confirm the problem before an authorized repair company is called to fix it.

"There's one Mobil owner, he tells clerks that if there's a discrepancy within $5 to reimburse the customer," said C. Todd Godlewski, director of the Schenectady County Bureau of Weights and Measures in upstate New York, the agency that inspects pumps.

"Yes, it can be that much," he said.

A bad valve can also work against retailers, freezing the price gauge for an instant after gas starts. No one's sure who gets gored more, or how deeply.

"Even one penny on the amount of petroleum pumped annually or weekly at a station would be several thousand gallons of fuel, and add that up," Godlewski said. "If you have a meter that is costing a customer, it adds up quite a bit."

The problem compounds the aggravation of record high gas prices. On Tuesday, the national average hit a record $3.51 per gallon, according to a survey of stations by AAA and the Oil Price Information Service. That's nearly 66 cents higher than last year, and rising.

"We'll hear complaints about this quite regularly, usually several each week," said Jason Toews, co-founder of the independent nationwide Web site GasBuddy.com that tracks prices and complaints.

"It's mostly about the principle of it," he said. He said the problem usually only costs a consumer pennies per fill-up, but that's more than enough these days.

Toews discounts the conspiracy theories that blame the problem on retailers or the oil industry. Most retailers, he said, wouldn't know how to alter the pumps to their benefit.

A New York Comptroller's Office audit in 2000 found "many municipalities" statewide failed to inspect their pumps once a year as required (the best practice is two inspections every year) and that meters were corrected during testing, which could mask overcharging. Four years later, a follow-up audit found only partial resolution, partly because of too little staffing.

Bob Renkes of the Petroleum Equipment Institute based in Tulsa, Okla., has heard about complaints, "mostly when gas prices are high." He said meters "get looser over time," which could make them malfunction and start to count pennies before fuel starts pumping.

"I think our industry would love to replace anything that wears down," Renkes said. But the check valves aren't a high priority when the industry is dealing with issues such as preventing identity theft when swipe cards are used, static electricity discharges and the 5 percent of retailers whose old mechanical equipment can't register a price of $4 a gallon.

State and local regulators doubt any but the most ambitious consumers would contact them in case of a problem, even though the phone numbers are on inspection stickers. More likely, consumers fume and wonder if they were cheated, or report it to the manager of the gas station or convenience store.

"That's what's tough about this," said Jessica Chittenden, spokeswoman for New York's weights and measures office that oversees local inspectors. "The two cents or whatever would go to the retailer."

Even when a report is made, and a local inspector is dispatched, the problem might not be fixed.

Chittenden said a faulty valve would likely work sporadically: "It's very difficult to find it unless you are there every day several times a day."

Godlewski, the upstate New York inspector, said he's found pumps off by as much as three times the 6-cent threshold. Because of it, his county this year is tracking pump problems and hopes to quantify it for the first time.

"You ask yourself," he said, "`If nobody said anything ... and it's run like that for six months, how many were taken?'"

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Postby toypusher » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:01 pm

Yep, local TV station here has done some pieces on that. The ratio of state inspectors to the nuber of gas pumps is totally outragous. Something like 16 inspectors and many thousands of pumps. No way that they can check each and everyone even once a year!!
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Postby raprap » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:08 pm

IMHO fuel should be sold by mass---not volumn. The density of gasoline varies so much with temperature that the most reproducible measurement would be to sell it by mass.

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Postby Mini Renegade » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:29 pm

I will see if it`s the same over here, I have never noticed but I will now, especially at 122.9p a litre!!!!!!!!
If evvr tha dus owt fr nowt, allus do it fr thissen
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Postby Jiminsav » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:41 pm

OMG thats such bull hockey I can't even explain it to youse guys.
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Postby asianflava » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:54 pm

Jiminsav wrote:OMG thats such bull hockey I can't even explain it to youse guys.


Well Jim, if there is anyone I would believe, it would be you. I'll take your word for it.
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Postby BrwBier » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:11 pm

raprap wrote:IMHO fuel should be sold by mass---not volumn. The density of gasoline varies so much with temperature that the most reproducible measurement would be to sell it by mass.

Rap

An other old wives tail. Ever been in a cave? Do you know where gas is kept waiting for you to pump it? Do you know how much temperature fluctuates 6' under ground?
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Postby Jiminsav » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:47 am

OK..first of all, the slow start of the flow is the way the manufacture insures that the pulser on the meter is actually working before the main valve opens.
Wayne pumps do this for sure, because thats what I work on, Gilbarco pumps also do it, but for a different reason..Gilbarco uses 3 different valve and the pump computer is checking them before full flow is initiated.
the check valve on a dispenser is to prevent back-flow of product into a meter thats not being used in a blender system. a blender uses regular and premium to make midgrade.
speaking of meters, they can be off up to a quart in 5 gallons, but I know in Georgia, if a consumer calls the Ag dept with a complaint, the Ag guy will be there the next day checking calibration.
most people that say their car can't hold that much gas have never actually filled the tank..usually they looking to get some money back from the store, the chiselers.

and as was pointed, most all gasoline is stored in underground tanks, where the temperature is around 68 - 70 degrees year round.
Canada uses temperature compensation, but thats so you don't fill your tank at 30 below zero and then park it in your 70 degrees garage and have the gas expand and over flow into the garage.
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Postby Lou Park » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:11 pm

Wow Jim,
That is the best explanation I have ever seen.
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Postby pete.wilson » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:31 pm

Hey

While I'm sure it happens everywhere to varying degree's, I see this one stated and had lots to say in New York state. Maybe Hillary can get that under control after the elections are over!!!! :twisted:

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Postby asianflava » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:49 pm

[quote="Jiminsav"]speaking of meters, they can be off up to a quart in 5 gallons, but I know in Georgia, if a consumer calls the Ag dept with a complaint, the Ag guy will be there the next day checking calibration./quote]

I read an article in a mag where they followed one of these guys aroud. He would fill a calibrated container with exactly 5 gallons of gas to see if you actually got 5 gal when you bought 5 gal. The article actually said that often times the test favored the customer.

I don't remember if I read it elesewhere or if it was this same article, but the ones who intentionally wanted to rip people off knew how it was tested. They would set up their pumps to dispense correctly for the first 5 gal, but after that they somehow would use a different calibration for the flow meter so that it made each gallon smaller.
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Postby looped » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:30 am

just filled up tonight it ticked off 21 cents before the fuel started.
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Postby Jiminsav » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:39 am

looped wrote:just filled up tonight it ticked off 21 cents before the fuel started.

Looped, thats because someone before you squeezed the hose after it stopped and then you had to pay to refill the hose. and if your at one of those mom and pop places with mechanical computers, they don't work well with the price over 3 dollars.
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Postby Jiminsav » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:43 am

Rocky, from the factory, you can't change the calibration method once the meter is turning.
now, saying that, someone out there may have some come up with a electronics package to intercept pulses and thus allow some thieving bastard to gouge the public, but rest assured, he/she/it will be caught and beaten severely eventually.
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Postby caseydog » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:35 am

Well, the article said that the problem was not that Wayne or Gilbarco made faulty meters, but that over time, the metering got "loose", which I assume means that these things need to be serviced and maintained. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. The idea that a mechanical device would need regular servicing does not seem like bull hockey to me.

BTW, Pete, I imagine President Hillary will be far to busy taking away our guns and surrendering to terrorists to be bothered with gas pumps, don't you think? ;)
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