Are there any plumbers here?

[Mark & Andrea Jones]

well I spoke to a neighbor about it that has one.... The maintenance on his softener is more expensive than replacing a water heater every 4 years. My solution is to put a nice long piece of masking tape down the side of the tank with dates every 6 months as recommended. As I drain and flush the tank I cross out a date. This one was never maintained as I've never thought about it. This is the first time I've ever had to replace a water heater. Expensive lesson, but now I'll start flushing it on recommended intervals and hopefully get a lil longer life out of this one.

I haven't chimed in because all the responses that I have seen so far have been reasonably correct. My husband and I have a water treatment business in SW VA. It ALL depends upon what your water conditions are and that mostly includes hardness, iron, manganese, pH, and TDS (total dissolved solids). Without knowing the geology of the area, I couldn't even begin to guess at what else might be in the water - other than calcium.

It all depends how long you plan to live at your house and how much effort you are willing to put into it. If your water is hard enough that it is leaving major deposits in your water heater, then you are looking at significant potential damage to your piping and faucets due to calcium deposits. Yes, you can flush out your water heater several times a year and that will lengthen the life of the water heater, but it will do nothing to reduce etching of glasses and deposits in piping/fixtures. You will continue to use a lot of soap to wash your clothes/dishes and you will probably have a problem with dry skin. Eventually you will need to start replacing the innards of your toilets or the valves on your faucets because the valves will not close and the water bill (if you have one) will start running high. You will probably need to do something about it eventually. If you are planning on living there over the long-term, then budget for it. If you are going to be moving in a couple of years, then it may not be worth the money or effort to install a softener.

Re: Maintenance on a softener. Again, it all depends upon what your water conditions are. If you have acidic water, then your acid neutralizer needs calcium added annually. If you have filters, they need to be changed. If you have an ultraviolet (UV) system on the house, then the bulb needs to be changed annually. If you have REALLY hard water (over 20 grains), then you may want to consider a reverse osmosis (RO) filter under your kitchen sink. If so, then the filters need to be changed periodically. Yes, if all you have is moderately hard water, then you may not need to do anything to a softener other than put salt in it. With other complications, the costs can be substantial. Keep in mind that if you can hook up with a local water treatment professional, you can probably handle most of the filter changes, etc yourself. Get them to show you how they do it and do it yourself the next time. If you can find someone locally that you trust, then they can handle the harder stuff to deal with - such as a valve rebuild or something like that.

Re: Softeners bought at a big-box store. If you are considering this option, please compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Look at the specs of the unit and calculate how much salt the unit will use and how many times it will regenerate over a particular time period. Will the unit even remove what you have in your water? If you are on a water system, then you will be paying for all that water (and the salt, too!) that the system uses to regenerate, so a system with a greater capacity (regenerates less) might be a better option. Most softeners bought at a big-box store have a limited ability to remove iron or manganese, so check those specs also. Also consider how easy it is to get service on that softener. Is there a local professional who is willing to work on that particular brand of softener? By our choice, we don't stock parts for those units, so what we can do and are willing to do for those brands is limited. However, if all you have is JUST hard water and you are a "hands-on" person, then that may be the route to go.

If you do decide to do something about your water, the first step is to find out what kind of water conditions you have. Have your water evaluated / tested - and it doesn't have to be at a lab. Most water treatment companies will evaluate your water for free - of course, you have to listen to their spiel, but that may not be a bad thing. Just try to winnow the wheat from the chaff. If the spiel is offensive, then spend the $$ and send a sample to a lab.

If you want to talk to either Mark or I with regards to water treatment issues, we'd be happy to tell you what we know. We've been providing water treatment services for nearly 15 years. Drop us a PM.

Andrea.
Clear Creek Water Works

[Micro469]

Andrea.....Informative, and great advice!!!

[48Rob]

I agree.

Nice to see other members who are "pro's" in their field willing to offer accurate advice.

Great reply Andrea, thank you for taking the time to type and post it!



Rob

[Wimperdink]

I certianly appreciate all the info. Its a lot to take in for someone who has never really thought about what comes out of that tap. I fall into the catagory that I will probably be somewhere else in the next 5 years or so. I was already planning on being out of here until the housing market dropped out. Now I'll wait a few years until it starts to pick back up and move on then. Thanks for your write up though. Very informative.

[bobhenry]

This is exactly what I had to do. The water heater waltz outside while giving it a water hose enema. Big clumps of flakes that I left in the yard took 4 monts to disolve into the ground. My water heater survived the experience though.

The calcium carbonate is in the water both hot and cold and is not a product of heating. I still recommend the whole house water filter you will be amazed what it will catch. I am not a big fan of soft water either but it doesn't hurt to filter out the lumps.

[Mark & Andrea Jones]

The calcium carbonate is in the water both hot and cold and is not a product of heating. I still recommend the whole house water filter you will be amazed what it will catch. I am not a big fan of soft water either but it doesn't hurt to filter out the lumps.

You're right, the calcium is in both the hot AND the cold water AND it doesn't hurt to "filter out the lumps" if you have a sediment problem. However, the heat from the water heater makes some (not all!) of the calcium precipitate faster. Add in the fact that the water stays stationary in the tank for a period of time while it is heating up, and you will get flakes of calcium precipitate accumulating in the bottom of the tank.

It is also possible that your water could be hard enough to have calcium actually precipitating in a glass of cold water on the countertop (some places around here are that hard). However, if you aren't seeing a white preciptate in the bottom of a glass, then a filter won't remove it. If you are seeing a precipitate, then it will only filter the precipitate - and will not do anything for the rest of the hardness. The calcium needs to be removed using an ion-exchange process - such as a water softener. Yes, there are some non-salt methods to remove calcium from water in the short-term, but I have yet to see any reputable research performed that actually proves that those methods are viable for the long-term.

NOTE: There is a 20" filter that we have used on a hunting cabin (house that is not used frequently) that actually has the red resin embedded in it. It will soften water (remove hardness) - until the cartridge is exhausted. Once the cartridge is exhausted, you have to toss it out and put in a new one. The old one cannot be regenerated like a regular softener is. However, this is NOT something that I would recommend for someone whose water is REALLY hard as it would get expensive pretty quick. The cartridges are about $145 - $160 each.

Its a lot to take in for someone who has never really thought about what comes out of that tap.

Oh, so true! Many of our best customers are people who have always wanted to move to the "country" - not realizing what they are getting into! But once they get adjusted to country living, they don't want to go back.

If you're going to be there for only a few years and you don't want to (or can't afford to) invest $$$ into a water treatment system, then periodically emptying out your water heater is a very good idea. One caveat, though. Do NOT empty the water into the septic tank (if you have one). Run it out onto the ground. Depending upon your septic tank, you may overload the septic system. It is simply safer (less likely to damage something) to run the water out onto the ground.

Andrea.

Sorry this is so wordy, but its hard to keep it to a minimum. :-)

[Spotman]

I know it's late response, but it was most likely the "Dip Tube" that corroded and left all the white flakes. I had the same problem last year, bought a new tube and flushed out the heater and things are working like new.

Sorry I haven't seen this before today or several days ago.

Bob

[Elumia]

Andrea,

In manyparts of the country, if your sewage goes to a public treatment plant, self regenerating Sodium water softeners can be frowned upon as they send Chloride and Sodium to the treatment plant. These compounds are hard to remove without expensive processes. This is more of an issue where people have well water and sewer hook ups rather than septic tanks. Some states are concerned about Sodium being sent thru septic systems since it may effect ground water. Municipal water systems typically supply relatively "soft" water as they are concerned about the health of their distribution system.

Curious, you note tankless water heaters on your site. Clearly, tankless heaters alleviate the problem of settling in a tank. Do you see other issues with tankless heaters? how does the lifetime of a tankless heater compare to a traditional unit? If they last longer with less maintenance, then that is an added benefit to the lower energy cost and factors in the return on the larger initial investment.

Mark

[Mark & Andrea Jones]

In manyparts of the country, if your sewage goes to a public treatment plant, self regenerating Sodium water softeners can be frowned upon as they send Chloride and Sodium to the treatment plant. These compounds are hard to remove without expensive processes.

Correct. The only way to remove it is a reverse osmosis system - which is expensive at the personal level. At a town level. . . . filter changes are probably the largest of the expenses. By the way, check out this website on Aquascams. You'll find some interesting discussions on non-salt water treatment systems.

Some states are concerned about Sodium being sent thru septic systems since it may effect ground water.

OK. I'll bite on that one, too, even though there are two issues here. Sodium in the ground water and the health of bacteria in the septic system. I'll start with my pet peeve - bacteria. There is some "discussion" in academic circles as to how harmful brine water actually is to the bacteria in the septic tank. The problem is that the last widely available study done on that was in the 70's. What people fail to consider is that bacteria are living organisms and all living organisms require salt to function properly. So, then the question is how much salt is too much? I don't personally know. The softeners that we work with use approx 80 gals of brine water to regenerate the media. This water would then be diluted into a 1000 gal septic tank before going out into the septic field (and then into the ground water). In addition to this, a properly sized water softener will regenerate once in about every 3 - 6 days. In a household of four with a usage of 75 gals per day per person, there is a heck of alot more water/waste going into a septic system then the 80 gals of brine water every 3 - 6 days. Yes, salt in the ground water is a concern. However, I'm not convinced that softener discharge is a large culprit - it's simply a visible culprit. In our area, the health dept does not want brine water to go into the septic tank. So, where are we told to send it? Into a dry ditch as discharge from a downspout drain. That seems worse to me because the brine water remains concentrated and is NOT diluted by other wastewater, it remains on the surface of the ground, and will also kill vegetation and attract wildlife (deer, raccoons, 'possum, etc) up next to your house. Some people like that, but some don't.

Municipal water systems typically supply relatively "soft" water as they are concerned about the health of their distribution system.

Again, it depends upon the hardness of the water that they start with and what it costs to remove that hardness. It's not cheap to soften municipal water and when money is tight, localities will conserve $$$ wherever they can. Most localities that I am familiar with do not try to do anything about the hardness. They are concerned with the water being safe per EPA standards. If you have soft municipal water, its generally because the water started soft. Also, consider the diameter of the localities water supply lines. Its only when the water gets to a 1/2" or 3/4" line in a residence that calcium deposits become an issue. Once the water goes past the water meter, then the health of the distribution system becomes YOUR problem.

Andrea.
I'm going to apologize again for the wordiness.

[Mark & Andrea Jones]

Curious, you note tankless water heaters on your site. Clearly, tankless heaters alleviate the problem of settling in a tank. Do you see other issues with tankless heaters? how does the lifetime of a tankless heater compare to a traditional unit? If they last longer with less maintenance, then that is an added benefit to the lower energy cost and factors in the return on the larger initial investment.

I put this into a second message because its (sort-of) a different topic.

Yes, there are issues with tankless water heaters. They can be a great thing - or a royal pain-in-the-a$$.

When you have a tankless water heater in a house with hard water, you will have still have scale buildup but it will happen within the heater coil of the tankless water heater - eventually clogging the water heater. This requires a vinegar wash to remove. Basically, several gallons of vinegar in a 5 gal bucket with a pump to pump the vinegar into and then out of the water heater itself. Its sounds simple, but its actually a little bit more complicated in practice. Alternatively, we suggest that the homeowner treat their water.

Re: lifespan. The brand of tankless water heater that we sell/service is a top quality brand. It is only available in natural gas or propane and the gas control valve is a highly sophisticated piece of equipment and is what makes this particular brand so energy efficient. It only uses as much gas as is needed to raise the water temp to the temp for which you set the unit. If the unit is properly maintained, the units have a life span of more than 15 years. We generally do not recommend an electric tankless water heater because many times you will also have to upgrade your electric service at the time of installation because the electric units draw a LOT of current - which negates the energy efficient effects.

Example. We have a external propane tankless water heater that we installed on our house in 2002. It has run with no maintenance at all until about 2 months ago, when my husband had to service it (cleaned it with vinegar and replaced the water inlet screen). When we installed it, it was the only gas appliance that we had (we have since added gas logs and a gas oven) and it used 80 gals of propane in one year with my husband filling up the whirlpool 2 - 4 times a week. We do not have a softener in our house and the town water is 6 grains hard - which is considered moderately hard. I fully expect this water heater to last 15 years or more. The lifespan of a recently-purchased, tank (electric or gas) water heater is 5 - 7 years. They are just not made to last much beyond the warranty period. Has this one been worth it? Yes. We do not run out of hot water when the whirlpool is filled up and the costs to operate it are nominal.

And, yes, it is a significantly larger initial investment. If you are interested in having one installed, talk to a local service provider (if you can find one), not just someone who can install the unit. A service provider is someone who is familiar with the problems that can arise from improper installation (because they spend their time fixing those installation problems!) and he/she can visually inspect a potential location for you. He/she should be frank and honest about the expectations that you should have with regards to a tankless water heater. They are not for every house or every situation.

Andrea.
Clear Creek Water Works

[Elumia]

Thank you Andrea. I just had to replace my gas HW heater and went with a tank for expedience - gotta have hot water! It failed due to corrosion (opposite problem of scaling) at the inlet pipe after 15 years. It was a pain to get out becuase it would not drain - probably due to scale in the bottom.

However, I want to relocate the HW heater to an outside location and I am weighing whether I get a tankless or just build an enclosure for the brand new 40 gal unit. Thanks for your input.

Mark

[Mark & Andrea Jones]

You're welcome!

Andrea.