Interior finish questions - problems encountered.

[bbarry]

I'm using the Cabot Spar Varnish (oil-based) for the interior finish on my build. I'm pretty pleased so far. It seems to dry hard (though it claims to be flexible). It does take a little time to work with as you must wait overnight between coats.



Info:
http://www.cabotstain.com/pdf/Spar_Varnish.pdf

Results:


If your finish is lifting so easily that clamps are pulling it off, I wouldn't think it'd be TOO terribly much trouble to sand it down to raw wood before recoating with an oil-based varnish. If you can obtain an acceptable asthetic this way, I'd think it'd be the way to go. Good luck!

Brad

[cuyeda]

Brad,

How many coats are on that wall? Did you spray, brush, or roll it on? Does it look that glossy after drying? Looks fantastic!

[bbarry]

That picture was taken after the second coat, it has four now. Yes it retains it's gloss when dry. I brushed it on, but I think that HVLP spray would be the best way. My biggest problem has been small bubbles and dust in the finish. They really show up when the surface is that glossy. I've wet-sanded with 400 grit now after the last coat and despite my best efforts have left some sand lines. I'm experimenting with waxing to even out the surface. My test spot looks promising.

Brad

[rbeemer]

That picture was taken after the second coat, it has four now. Yes it retains it's gloss when dry. I brushed it on, but I think that HVLP spray would be the best way. My biggest problem has been small bubbles and dust in the finish. They really show up when the surface is that glossy. I've wet-sanded with 400 grit now after the last coat and despite my best efforts have left some sand lines. I'm experimenting with waxing to even out the surface. My test spot looks promising.

Brad

Brad, if you are trying to get rid of bubbles and dust. depending on how big they are you can rub it out with a slurry of fine pumice and you will not lose your glossy shine or have to rub real hard while trying to way it.

[Esteban]

No, I'm not really mad, but I am pretty (level headed) frustrated. Now I have uneven and blotchy new stain on the wall after sanding off the water based varnish and stain and re-staining the birch plywood.

I sanded all the varnish and stain off one wall. What a fun two to three hours that was!? I stained the plywood again. In some spots the sanding sanded all the way through the paper thin birch layer. Too much of the stain is blotchy or will not stick to the inner layer of plywood and its glue. I tried finger staining (my term) with my gloves on to manipulate the solids to the light spots. With some success. But any time I try to later add more stain on top the light spots with a stain dampened rag, to even the stain color, it drags off the dried stain I've already applied. Finger staining isn't a complete solution.

I'm contemplating sanding off the all new stain down to raw wood and gluing or epoxying on a second layer of 1/8" of birch plywood to get a good new surface to stain and varnish. Oh joy! It'll cost me about 50-75 bucks in materials and add maybe 20 pounds to the weight of the teardrop.

Or I can change my plans and paint the inside - but it's not the look I want.

Does anyone have any other good ideas how to salvage the situation?

I'm not a fan of wallpaper nor do I want to carpet the walls.


Getting kind of off topic: Maybe I should change my forum name from Esteban to Boo Boo (moderators, please don't).

Another recent one I fixed was I cut a 2-1/8" hole through the completed outside 1/4" plywood and fiberglass of one wall. Big Oooops! And I didn't even swear! I was supposed to cut the hole through the as yet unattached 1/8 birch for a light switch. Fixed the ooopsie hole by cutting a patch from scrap 1/4" plywood with the hole saw, taped that to the outside wall to fill the hole, then turned the wall over on my bench so the outside wall was sitting flat on the bench. Mixed up some epoxy and filled in the hole around the wood patch. Over the next few days I applied a fiberglass patch and fairing compound mix to the outside wall. Sanded it flat all nice and pretty. All fixed and good as new now. Oh, the correct two holes are cut into the sandwich frame, and inside birch plywood, to hold a round Sailor Sam's light switch on the inside of the cabin by the door.

Ron Dickey and I were working outside in my driveway that day. We're retiring his gun port doors. Ron helped calm me down and made a suggestion that lead to the pretty easy to do fix. Thanks Ron.

[goldcoop]

Does anyone have any other good ideas how to salvage the situation?

Steve- Acetone & a flat steel scraper will take the old finish off without the danger of sanding thru.

Accept the fact that some stain is not going to be removed...Don't try to sand ALL the stain out or you will surely sand thru. Try for a uniform light color from the remaining stain by rubbing a cloth with light acetone on it with the grain. Wear gloves

When you re-stain: rub the stain in hard & wipe all excess stain off hard (all with the grain).

Let it dry for a day.

Then you lightly go over the whole thing with Xtrafine Steel Wool.

Wipe down with a good tack cloth.

Put on a coat of Sealer (this can be thinned top coat). This will raise some grain.

Let dry.

Lightly sand to knock down the raised grain, wipe w/ tack cloth.

1st coat -dry- sand- tack cloth- 2nd coat, etc.

Sorry... just going thru how I would finish. Most pretty basic. Anything you might have missed?

When all else fails maybe "peel & stick" veneer used mostly for cabinet refacing?

Cheers,

Coop

[Esteban]

Coop,

Thanks for your ideas and information. I'll try it on the other side that I haven't stripped the varnish off from yet. On the boo boo side I sanded through the birch too much the peel and stick might work well. I'll call the hardwood supplier I got my plywood from and see if they have it in birch.

[bbarry]

Another recent one I fixed was I cut a 2-1/8" hole through the completed outside 1/4" plywood and fiberglass of one wall. Big Oooops! And I didn't even swear! I was supposed to cut the hole through the as yet unattached 1/8 birch for a light switch. Fixed the ooopsie hole by cutting a patch from scrap 1/4" plywood with the hole saw, taped that to the outside wall to fill the hole, then turned the wall over on my bench so the outside wall was sitting flat on the bench. Mixed up some epoxy and filled in the hole around the wood patch. Over the next few days I applied a fiberglass patch and fairing compound mix to the outside wall. Sanded it flat all nice and pretty. All fixed and good as new now. Oh, the correct two holes are cut into the sandwich frame, and inside birch plywood, to hold a round Sailor Sam's light switch on the inside of the cabin by the door.

Okay, I wasn't going to tell this story to protect the (not so) innocent but now I have to. I was working away, sanding the birch ply for one of my sides when I look up and see Grandpa drilling a 1/2" hole right in the middle of one of the sides. After I politely asked him what the heck he was doing, he was really embarassed. He wasn't thinking and put the hole right where it didn't need to be. So, now we have a small dowel patch. Character...and a good story to tell his great-grandchildren.

Brad

[kennyrayandersen]

The other problem with Shellac is that it gets soft in the heat -- you can actually put a fingerprint in it. A tear can get pretty hot sitting out in the sun. Other than a fine esoteric french polish, there is really not much reason to use shellac anymore.

I took a Wood finishing class in college, and there are LOTS of ways to do it wrong, even with the right stuff! I've used both water, oil, and lacquer based stains.

Professionals use lacquer Based stains as they dry quickly, but the problem is that they dry quickly and if you aren’t REALLY fast and proficient, and even if you are, they can look blotchy!

I used oil-based stains in all of the cabinets throughout my house (Kelly Moore). I had seen some work my contractor’s guy had done, in lacquer. I called him up and said I’d be staining the cabinets. I hear a pause on the other end and then he says OK. My wife and I spent about 100 hours sanding and staining the cabinets (professional don’t sand them past running them trough the big belt sander either!). When the contractor saw the cabinets he said they looked great – he says what color is it? I say, it’s not the color -- he doesn't say anything after that. If I would have shot the final coat on the cabinets, I would have used a polyurethane as it is tough.

Bottom line is that the oil-based stains gives you plenty of time to wipe off the excess, and touch up the light areas, drops etc. before it completely dries. Yes, it takes longer because you have to wait to do the topcoat, but I think I got a much better, richer look compared to the lacquer stain. The paint guy shot Lacquer over the top because it dries fast (there’s a theme there somewhere), and I never had any problems even about the stove where my wife cooks every day.

I did the kids beds with a water-based stain (white) AND a water-based polyurethane (Behr) (girls beds). I shot it in the house with an HVLP sprayer and you nearly couldn’t even smell it, which was nice. No problems whatsoever. The Behr stuff ain’t cheap, but I’ve never had any trouble with it. I used their sealer on bare wood, followed by the polyurethane on the natural finished beds (boys).

It sounds like you did all of the right things. There may have been something on your tack cloth (I didn’t use one because of this). Or your earlier point about not stirring it up quite enough might also be a reason. The big pain is that when you do everything or mostly everything right it’s really hard to figure out what went wrong. One thing is that I use a clean (no fabric softener) slightly damp cloth to wipe the wood down, which pre-raises the grain (make sure that it dries really well). I knock that down with worn 220, before the first water-based coat. I repeat that sanding after the first sealer coat to eliminate any additional raised grain. Subsequent coats usually don't require additional sanding.

Though it adds just a bit of weight and cost, I like your idea of getting new wood and just finishing it again as you save a ton of labor. The acetone route is hard to recommend as the fumes are really bad for you, it can soften the veneer glue and in the end it still may tend to look rather blotchy anyway; and, it will melt rubber gloves.

Yeah, it kind of sucks, but buck-up little ranger and keep plowing! This too shall pass.

[Esteban]

kennyray, thanks for your information and ideas. It's hard to figure out why the finish is too soft on the cabin sides when it's fine on the sample board I made earlier. Like you wrote sometimes it's a mystery. The tack cloth I used was dry, with no stickiness, so it's an unlikely cause for the poor varnish adhesion.

The idea of putting a new birch veneer over the blotchy side met reality, $$$, when I called my hardwood supplier. A 4'x8' birch veneer is $66. A 4'x8' sheet of 1/8" birch plywood is $19.22. 1/4" is $15.79.

So, it looks like I'll sand each side to get a good gluing surface. Then will glue or epoxy on another layer of 1/8" birch plywood - I have it on hand.

Glue. My choice is whether to glue it with Titebond II (or III) or to epoxy it. I have the epoxy and Titebond II on hand. May buy and use Titebond III for its longer working time.

Sprayer. I purchased a Rockler HVLP compressor and spray gun awhile ago I haven't used yet. I'll set it up and practice spraying on scrap. The consensus seems to be to use an oil based varnish. I'll get a quart today to practice on the sample board.

Stain. I've been using water based Varathane. I preferred the slightly reddish brown tone of Summer Oak. It's been easy enough to use on the raw birch plywood. Will look into oil stains when I go to the paint store to see if there's a color I like as well.

[Dean_A]

Now my choice is whether to glue it with Titebond II (or III) or to epoxy it. I have the epoxy and Titebond II on hand. May buy and use Titebond III for its longer working time.

For what it's worth, I used contact cement when I adhered 1/8 birch onto the ugly plywood inside of my galley. Worked great, but the pieces weren't very big. It would have been harder to wrangle full size pieces.

[Esteban]

Dean,

I wrangled the sides on when I epoxied them to the frame. Was pretty tense starting out. It went easy enough. I liked that it had some working time that allowed me to adjust the line up of the plywood with the frame, door opening, a hole cut for a light switch and several wire bundles. I'd previously cut it to fit the cabin profile. Left a tiny overlap to clean up with a router.

Contact cement would need almost perfect alignment - too scary for me to tackle.

Time to get off the 'puter and go to the paint store.

More chapters of Steve's not quite excellent adventures to follow.

[MsDana]

hey esteban..gosh sorry for all the problems you are having. Its almost acting like there is a ton of moisture in the air. Im sure thats not the case tho.
Ive been working with stains, both water based and oil based for years and have never ran into this. I also use a lot of poly both oil and water base. I live in a log cabin community and there is a lot of that. Ive almost always used minwax polys and always minwax stain. I hate to sound like a commercial. Is there a possibility that the stuff you used got frozen somewhere along the line. I know you live in Calif. but maybe the problem was somehow in the can. Starting over with a fresh slate at this point is prolly the smartest way to go. When I stain (walls, floors, cabinets, trim, furniture) i like to make the surface baby smooth. Lite sanding also removes something called a planers press on boards. Pine and other soft woods will blotch if your not carefull because they take stain better is some spots and minwax has a wood prep product to help the wood accept the stain more evenly. I never have excess to wipe off. Ive done this the same way for a lot of years. I dip an old clean t shirt in the stain(wear gloves and change them often..they come apart) and rub the stain into the wood. If after the first pass its not dark enough wait a little while and wipe her down again till shes dry. Then I wait 24 hours or longer and put on the poly. Let dry ..lite sand..next coat. anyway thats my 2 cent.

Dana

[Todah Tear]

Another vote for Minwax® Helmsman Spar Urethane.

Ditto. I used this on Todah I after staining the wood.

I have also used Acrylic Exterior paint from Sherwin Williams on Todah II and it held up very well.

Todah

[ZendoDeb]

Does anyone have any other good ideas how to salvage the situation?

One way to cover up blotchy wood, whether due to "patching" varnish or other problems is to use an amber colored varnish. (Like Captain's Varnish from Petit) Now this is usually used on teak, an amber colored wood, so you may want to test it. For exterior applications, it usually is considered to have better UV resistance than the clear.

Most true marine varnishes (Petit, Interlux, Epiphanes - not Rust-oleum) are VERY hard. All are oil based (usually thin with naphtha or worse - no cheap foam brushes) and come in 2 colors: clear and amber. Oh yeah, be very careful in enclosed spaces. Naphtha is bad enough. Other chemicals are worse. (MEK, toluene are great for cleaning, bad for your health.) Buy a badger-hair brush if you want a mirror like finish. Hint, you won't find one at Home Depot, Lowes or Ace. Try Jamestown Distributors.

And whatever product you use, do a spit coat as first coat. (Thin 25% or better. Some products have a sealer - which is usually the product thinned 25% or better.) This may be why your application bubbled off. Getting varnish to stick to wood is not always an easy proposition. After that, most needs to cure at least 48 hours after the final coat, and it all needs to be sanded between coats.

(Hey, I own a sailboat - I know from varnish.)