CPES and stain

[alftinc]

Two quick questions. My next Teardrop will be a woody. 1. How do you fasten the outside walls to the framing without getting a bunch of ugly screw heads showing?? 2. Can you stain the wood before you apply the CPES as a sealer?? Thanks for any input.

[Sparksalot]

For the screws, you can take the "hide them in plain sight" approach, and either cover with trim, use a flush plug, or wooden plug.

I didn't stain, but I believe it goes on just fine before CPES. You can call or e-mail the folks at Rot Doctor with questions like that. They are very helpful.

Beware with CPES, anything on the wood (like pencil marks) will be there forever after the CPES is applied.

[Micro469]

Two quick questions. My next Teardrop will be a woody. 1. How do you fasten the outside walls to the framing without getting a bunch of ugly screw heads showing?? 2. Can you stain the wood before you apply the CPES as a sealer?? Thanks for any input.

If it's a solid woody, with no trim, then your outside panel is going to have to be really well glued (epoxy ,titebond III, Pl adhesive,) to your framing. Anther way is to use brad nail... the heads are so small you won't see them.

As for stain, I would use water based stain, even tho I used CPES, I don't know how it reacts to oil stains. My best guess is that it wouldn't soak in,and make a mess......

[S. Heisley]

I asked Doc Rot that very question and the response was:

Be sure that the stain is good and "settled" (dry) before applying the CPES. I would give the stain at least a week to set, and a couple of weeks would be even better.

Recognize that we are talking about 'pure' stain, that which is not combined with varnish or polyurethane or any other finishing product. Varnish and polyurethane combined with stain and applied first may hamper absoption of CPES into the wood.

For me, I ended up not staining this way because the klutz that is writing this managed to get a big fat hand print of laminate on the surface I wanted to stain. Previously applied glue, and laminate substances can hamper absorption of stains. I think you would have to be super careful to use this method successfully - not be a klutz like me!

You can put the CPES on first and then follow up about 8 hours later with a stain that is combined with a varnish or polyurethane. Take a look at View topic - Frosteez Just Chillin!, Post subject: Busy Weekend by cdfnchico. They used a combined varnish/stain type of finish applied after the CPES application and they describe how they did it very well, including additional 'how-to' references. Their pictures look beautiful!

Here's the location of that:

http://tnttt.com/vewtop ... 1&start=15

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

[S. Heisley]

Okay, I have a hard time with this forum system. I haven't learned the proper way to use it yet. I tried to use the address I gave you and it wasn't recognized. But, if you do a search on the word 'frosteez', you'll find it. The information you would want to see is on page 2. Hope that helps.

[doug hodder]

I'd recommend an aniline dye, available in water or alcohol bases. Water has a better UV resistance. Comes in a bunch of colors and you can doctor it up how you want. It is very compatible with an epoxy type system. As I recall, Miriam had some link to a site that showed results from using epoxies over a variety of stains/dyes. Epoxy over an oil based stain isn't recommended. For aniline dyes try... www.woodworker.com Just my opinions. Doug

[Arne]

if you stain, then cpes, you have to coat the cpes to keep it from uv breakdown. at least, I don't think that cpes is uv protected...

[TPMcGinty]

I put CPES on first and then stained. It worked fine.

[cdfnchico]

Sharon, thanks for the tag...but we applied our stain first...then CPES'd.

In anticipation of this long weekend we got our sides ready to go...we went back and forth about stain or not and finally decided to go with a light coat of golden oak to bring out the grain.

Next we masked off the bottom 3" of the interior (where it will set against the trailer) and applied a coat of CPES and a coat of sticky black goo.

Then, we flipped 'em over and applied a couple of coats of CPES to the exterior.

We decided to wait & apply a final coat of CPES just prior to applying the varnish because we read here: http://www.smithandcompany.org/varnishpriming.html this:

The final coat of CPES is the adhesion-promoting primer, and the first coat of varnish must be applied after the solvents have evaporated, but before the CPES resins have fully cured. If you apply that last coat of CPES in the afternoon, then apply the first coat of varnish the next day. The reason CPES works this way as an adhesion-promoting primer is that it is designed to be VERY slow-curing. It actually takes several days, so it finishes curing after the first varnish coat has cured, and thus glues down the varnish with a flexible epoxy glue.

Anyway, we were very happy with the color so far, with the stain and the CPES.

[S. Heisley]

Hi, Cathy:

Thanks for your reply. Yes, ideally, the stain should be applied first and then allowed to soak into the wood and dry very well before applying the CPES. In my questioning of both DR. Rot and Smith & Co., I don't remember them mentioning using only a water-based stain; but, it makes sense that it might work better that way.

The quote from Smith &Co. that you used in your thread misled me because it is discussing putting varnish on after the CPES. I actually used your thread connection to read their entire article.
I then went a step further and called Smith & Co., asking the company representative if a stain contained in a varnish or polyurethane mixture could be applied on top of the CPES. (I had already damaged my opportunity to apply stain directly to the wood before applying the CPES (the laminate hand print).) Their short answer was yes; but, the combination stain/varnish or stain/polyurethane would be susceptible to scratches and the elements.

As I remember, someone else had already commented on the UV problems and, of course, scratches are a no-brainer (they happen); so, I didn't add to that part.

I hope that explains things a bit better.

Thanks again for your attentiveness to detail, both with forum comments and with your descriptions of your build. You are doing a great job!

[SIXTOTWO]

As for stain, I would use water based stain, even tho I used CPES, I don't know how it reacts to oil stains. My best guess is that it wouldn't soak in,and make a mess......

I'm so confused, on Smith & Co site it says to use an oil based stain.
I copied this.....
"If staining is desired, use an "oil-base" stain. We definitely do not recommend any waterborne stains, water-cleanup stains or latex stains. The sealer does not bond to the acrylic resins that are commonly used in latex products, and acrylic resins would be coating the wood fibers. If the sealer cannot soak into the wood and glue onto the surface fibers of the wood then the bond will be weak, and this is the bond that holds the varnish to the wood. Allow the stain to fully chemically cure before proceeding. This usually takes 3-4 days. "



On this thread everyone is saying to use water based. HELP...what should we use?

[Walt M]

I built a woody, no brads or screws. I glued the outside and inside panels to the framing members with PL Urethane adhesive. 2 coats cpes then three coats of commercial Spar varnish. Walt

[cdfnchico]

On this thread everyone is saying to use water based. HELP...what should we use?

This thread did get a little mixed up...we followed Smith's recomendation and applied an oil based Minwax first...followed by a couple coats of CPES. which covered just fine. As an aside, we waited to apply our final coat of CPES until we were ready to apply the first coat of varnish because Smith's recommended doing so in order to "glue down" that first layer of varnish. So far so good!

[Mark McD]

Based on personal experiance and recommendation of the Rot Doc I would use oil base stain or dye stain. The key to oil based stain is to let it dry as long as possible. If oil based varnishes stick to epoxy, epoxy will stick to oil based stain. Oil based stains work better because they have a longer open time. It's hard to stain large pieces with water based stains and get it on evenly because by the time you get the whole piece stained, the end you started on is already dry making it hard to even out the color. You could spray it. That would make it easier, but like was previously discussed, water based products contain acrylic binders that may hinder adhesion of other topcoats. Water based dye stain doesn't have that problem however because the powdered forms have no binders in them.However, they present the same problem- short open times- so spray application is really the only way to apply this type of stain. Alcohol based dye stains would also work, but the open time is about 30 seconds...you can see the problem.

[Miriam C.]

I used Minwax water based and got a varnish mess for my trouble. I had epoxied the edges and Minwaxed the sides. Well the varnish peeled up on the edges. Nothing I did made a difference. Finally had to peel the varnish off and put Clear Shield on. They are no longer making clear shield now.

There was a test on epoxies and finishes and Minwax water based did not allow the varnish to adhere to the epoxy as well as other stains. Like Doug said a dye is a different animal. I know he uses it with wonderful results.

This is the new test. The link to the old test doesn't work. Be sure to read all the information.

http://www.mar-k.com/final_summary.html