Power converter /charger 6, -12 volt battery?

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Power converter /charger 6, -12 volt battery?

Postby munky2180 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Hi im 23 kinda new at this and new to this site and i love how everybody builds there own tear drops and ttt...im trying to save up a little right now so i can go ahead and buy a trailer to get started....

i am building a small rv ttt. i am considering getting the converter/charger for it 2000watts... i want to be able to run my ac unit all night with out running a generator...Question 1 i want to use 6, 12 volt deepcycle batteries if i hook these all up in parallel,it still should give me 12 volts right? with all of these connected togeather will it blow my inverter/charger up? and will the charger of the converter charge all of these batterys ? ......................and last if i threw on a battery charger while the batteries are hooked up all togeather will it charge them all up the same 100% full thanks

:roll:
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Postby wannabefree » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:50 am

Hi, Munky. Long post warning!!

Let me start with I am an electrical engineer with 28 years experience, some of that in the satellite power converter industry. I have said the following before and been ignored by others, but will say it again in greater detail and maybe be believed. I do know what I am talking about, but there are those who will offer advice to the contrary. They may be well intentioned but I would not follow their advice for my own trailer and recommend you don't either. Time is much too precious to spend it on a bad idea. :cry:

Paralleling 12V batteries will indeed give you 12V. That is not a problem.

Paralleling two 12V batteries is OK, but not optimal. What happens is that imbalances develop between the batteries over time. It does not take very long; just a few charge/discharge cycles and their full-charge voltage will differ significantly. As imbalences develop, even when not under load, the stronger battery will attempt to charge the weaker battery. This charging of one battery by another leads to premature failure of both batteries because you end up with some batteries constantly being charged while others are being discharged. When a battery ultimately fails it looks like a resistance to the other batteries. They see a load, even when everything is off. You respond by charging the batteries more frequently, and the frequent charge cycles lead to failure of the good batteries.

The more batteries you parallel the worse the situation becomes. One battery fails and the others fail in cascade.

There are several ways to deal with this:
1) use a single monstrous battery
2) string your batteries in series and use a down-converter to give you 12V
3) Install a series diode between each battery and the load. Unfortunately this requires a separate charger for each battery, or you have to move the charger from battery to battery to charge each individually.
4) parallel a bunch of batteries and live with premature failure.
5) use two 6V batteries in series, three 4V, or six 2V.

#4 is, in my view, the least desirable and most expensive alternative because you will be buying a lot of batteries. If you only have a few batteries, #3 may work for you. #2 can be pretty good, as you can readily get 72V to 12V converters. Vicor is one maker. That allows you to string 6 batteries in series, but a charger for this arrangement will cost you. #5 is best if you only need two batteries. Batteries are strung in series all the time with no evil consequences.

Frankly, by the time you buy batteries to run AC all night you could get a nice little Honda genny to do the same thing and save about 300 pounds.

I apologize for the long post. I seem to do that, but I wanted to point out some of the alternatives as well as the problems. As another TTT nut says, build what you want and be happy with it. :)

Oh, yeah, you had other questions -
A bunch of batteries in parallel will not hurt your inverter or charger.
Choose your charger to give you a charge rate about 1/10 of the capacity of your battery. IOW, if your battery is capable of 100AH, you need a 10A charger. +or- 50% or so. It's very inexact. A high quality fast charger will allow you to charge at a faster rate, up to 50% of capacity, with corresponding potential reduction in battery life if it is not a really smart charger. With all those batteries, get a really good charger. Or plan on buying lots of replacement batteries soon ;)

Have fun,
Sherman
In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away.
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Postby munky2180 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:17 pm

thank you for your reply....very usefull information... the problem i have the places i go to the generator will be to loud.... i like this option Install a series diode between each battery and the load. Unfortunately this requires a separate charger for each battery, or you have to move the charger from battery to battery to charge each individually.


once again thanks for your help Sherman --- Brent(munky)
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Postby madjack » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:06 pm

...a couple of thoughts....
...everything "wannabefree" sez...
...INVERTER...takes 12DCV and changes it into 120VAC...
...CONVERTER...takes 120VAC and changes it into 12VDC...may also charge the battery...
...weight...a 150AH group 27/31(or larger) 12v battery will weigh at least 75# or more...a pair of 6v 220AH batteries would require a crane to load/unload them...
...power usage...an average window shaker @ 5A, would use 60 AH in a 12 hour nights usage...you could cut that in half, since the unit will not be running continuously...this does not take into account surge on start up which can double(or more) amp draw...keep in mind, this is @120VAC...now, for your INVERTER to supply that power, it will havvta draw 300 AH (half of 60AH x 10) worth of 12VDC electricity...that equates to 4, 150AH batteries for one nights usage...also, as the battery voltage drops from 12.8(nominal for fully charged battery) to around 10.8-11 (battery considered dead) your amperage will increase to maintain the wattage, so you will havvta use heavy welding cables to hookup your battery to inverter...since you used up 300AH, you will need 30 hours @ 10A to recharge them....
...a lotta thought and discussion has gone on here about running AC off of batteries, it has been determined, it can be done, it is just not very feasible/practical for most folks......
...good luck...
madjack 8)
...I have come to believe that, conflict resolution, through violence, is never acceptable.....................mj
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Postby Mary K » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:28 pm

What they said. And really all that would be way to heavy for a TTT.

BUT, a generator would do the job better than anything other than shore power.

Check out these links:
http://tnttt.com/viewto ... erator+box

http://tnttt.com/viewto ... erator+box

http://tnttt.com/viewto ... =generator


You can find more by searching "generator" in the electrical secrets section.
Mary K

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. Bilbo Baggins
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Postby wannabefree » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:08 pm

Comforting to have people agree with me for once.

Really, the Honda is not that loud, and Honeywell has one that they claim is quieter and it's cheaper. But I can understand being sensitive to the noise. One reason I camp is to get away from noise. As MJ pointed out, the weight is really a killer. However, it can be done and if you have success we all would love to hear about it.
In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away.
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Postby munky2180 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:00 pm

seems like a pian for an ac ill look into the honywell gen sounds like a better option...thanks everybody for all your help.....i got the plans now just wating for a good price trailer on craigs list and some money and ill be on my way...ill post pics when i get started thanks
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