GFCI Trips in Campground

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GFCI Trips in Campground

Postby dulcimerbob » Tue May 26, 2009 7:39 pm

I have a 65 Winnebago pull behind 12' I had to replace the shore power inlet (male plug on outside)and the wire to the breaker panel. I have no problems with the power plugged into a regular outlet or using a 30amp adapter with an extention cord. Last summer I was at a campground that only had 20 amp with GFCI outlets . I plugged in and immediately tripped all the outlets downstream of my trailer. Anyone have any suggestions ?

BTW Hello to everyone as I have not been around lately. :)
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Postby ARKPAT » Tue May 26, 2009 9:22 pm

:thinking:


:thumbsup:

Pat
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Postby Miriam C. » Wed May 27, 2009 11:32 am

:o If you don't usually have this trouble then the campground might need an update. You get too many hairdryers and microwaves going and that will happen if the campground hasn't updated to accommodate all the new stuff we take camping. 8)
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Postby wlooper89 » Wed May 27, 2009 1:28 pm

A GFCI trip and circuit breaker trip are two different things. If it is the GFCI on the campground outlet that trips, then the trailer could have a short to ground in either the primary or common wire. The safety aspect of a GFCI is that it could be a person completing the path to ground, perhaps by touching the trailer frame while standing on wet ground. At one time I thought AC ground only needed to be connected to campground outlet ground. But now I believe it improves safety to also connect AC ground to the trailer frame as RV manufacturers do. By doing this the GFCI will trip immediately when there is a short to the trailer frame and not wait until the path to ground is completed by a person standing on wet ground. An inexpensive device like this can indicate a number of different faults in the wiring of either the campground or trailer.

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/mo ... delID=3941

If overload and circuit breaker trip is the problem then as ARKPAT said turning off items in the trailer before connecting to the campground outlet and then turning on one at a time can help determine which combination of appliances the campground outlet can handle. :)

Bill
Last edited by wlooper89 on Wed May 27, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bobhenry » Wed May 27, 2009 1:49 pm

This first little guy will tell you a number of things. Last one I bought was about $8.00. Might be handy to have onboard. It sounds like an open ground to me but I am sure there others on here that are better versed than I. Let us all know what you find out

http://www.ask-the-electrician.com/safety.htm
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Postby wlooper89 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:22 pm

I believe the GFCI trips because of a ground fault that can be either in the primary or common AC wires, because the GFCI detects a very slight difference in amp draw between primary and common, causing it to trip. A short circuit or overload will not normally cause a trip of the GFCI because it sees this only as a load, not a difference between primary and common amp draw.

A GFCI trip can occur if the trailer frame is grounded to campground power ground and a short between the trailer frame and either primary or common occurs. If the trailer frame is not grounded to the campground power outlet and a short to the trailer frame occurs, nothing might happen right away. But a person standing on wet ground and touching the trailer frame could complete the path to ground and trip the GFCI. This is the safety advantage of a GFCI and the reason why they are needed in wet locations.

I changed my AC wiring and attached AC ground to the trailer frame, having initially connected AC ground only to campground power outlet. It now seems a little better to me to have the GFCI trip right away if there is a short to the trailer frame rather than wait until a person completes the path to ground. This is the way RV manufacturers do it and there is no conflict with DC negative that is attached to the trailer frame for the running lights.

Sorry this does not directly address the question of why the campground GFCI trips, but I hope it will help with troubleshooting. I very much recommend a little guy like this or the one shown by bobhenry.
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/mo ... delID=3941
It has helped me fix my own wiring mistakes and also verifies the campground power is correct.

Bill
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Postby wlooper89 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:16 pm

Though I am not an electrician and have only a limited understanding of residential wiring, I do realize there is a "bonding" between AC common and ground usually at the power distribution panel. This bonding prevents a buildup of electrical energy between the body of an appliance, for example a toaster, and ground so a person should not be shocked by touching the toaster with faulty wiring. The on-off switch is in the primary wire and the power plug is usually shaped so it can only be inserted one way.

This "bonding" between ground and AC common does not affect things on the load side of a GFCI, which only senses whether the amp draw of primary and common are equal. If not the GFCI trips. With my GFCI the AC ground wire does not even pass through the unit but bypasses it entirely per the instructions.

I would like to understand this better if someone can help me. The bonding between AC common and ground must not be a direct connection. Otherwise it seems much of the electrical energy would be lost to earth and the amp draw of AC primary and common would be unequal. Or is this not the case?

Bill
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Postby wlooper89 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:42 am

Powderburn,

Thank you very much. That really does clarify things for me. I somehow imagined electricity going into the ground and being wasted. Glad that is not the case.

powderburn wrote:If power is escaping the hot side of a GFCI and not returning on the neutral, its going somewhere else(not necesseraly through the ground wire either) and your GFCI will trip.


I believe the GFCI will also trip if the common (neutral) wire on the load side of the GFCI somehow connects to earth. Is this correct?

Bill
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The Whole Story

Postby eamarquardt » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:30 pm

This is SCARY. GFIs are really simple to understand. If all the current going out the receptical (or the ones connected in parallel to it to use its protective circuitry, as appears to be the case in the rv park in question) doesn't return to the neutral (the correct term not common) the GFI trips! Most of them aren't circuit breakers and I don't know if they'll trip on an overload or not. But who cares. Fact, if you trip the GFI somethings wrong. Don't use A/C till you UNDERSTAND what is causing the problem and fix it. If you plug in and it trips the GFI there IS a problem. All the little electrons going out are not using the proper path to return. You, if you don't fix the problem, might become the improper path which could be hazardous to your health if the rv park (or you) don't have the protection of a working GFI.

If you don't understand the issues, get a professional electrician.

Cheers,

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Postby wlooper89 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:29 pm

Hot and neutral are essentially the same. The only difference is that in this country the common side is connected to earth at the power panel or point of entry to a residence. And the plugs and receptacles are designed to keep primary and common going the same way.

In Taiwan where I worked for a number of years, the outlets were not polarized in the new building where I lived. A plug with a wide common pin could not be inserted. That really has me puzzled.

Bill
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Postby atkryder » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:54 pm

GFIs are very very sensitive! A proper operating GFI will trip at +/- 5mA.
GFIs will not trip during a overcurrent situation that is what circuit breakers are for. Long extension cords, old GFIs, and older equipment can a all cause them to trip when really there is nothing wrong but a GFI that is a little weak.


Hope this help

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Curent flow

Postby eamarquardt » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:19 pm

Half of the alternating current goes through the primary and the other half goes through the common.

I don't know what the above statement means. All of the current flows through the neurtal/common (whatever we want to call it) and all of the current flows through the "hot" lead. A/C is a sine wave of potential. In theory the neutral provides a path back to the source of the potential which swings positive 120 volts (we'll keep RMS out of this discussion) and then negagive 120 volts. It's called neutral because in a properly installed case there is no potential to ground. All of the potential is on the hot lead.

I urge peple to not mess with stuff they don't understand or have a working knowledge of.

Cheers,

Gus
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Postby wlooper89 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:26 pm

atkryder wrote:GFIs are very very sensitive! A proper operating GFI will trip at +/- 5mA.
GFIs will not trip during a overcurrent situation that is what circuit breakers are for. Long extension cords, old GFIs, and older equipment can a all cause them to trip when really there is nothing wrong but a GFI that is a little weak.

Seth


That was a good comment. My shower at home has a fluorescent light that goes through a GFCI. It frequently trips for no apparent reason. I think the ballast in fluorescent fixtures sometimes causes a GFCI trip.

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Re: Curent flow

Postby wlooper89 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:58 pm

eamarquardt wrote:Half of the alternating current goes through the primary and the other half goes through the common.

I don't know what the above statement means. All of the current flows through the neutrral/common (whatever we want to call it) and all of the current flows through the "hot" lead. A/C is a sine wave of potential. In theory the neutral provides a path back to the source of the potential which swings positive 120 volts (we'll keep RMS out of this discussion) and then negative 120 volts. It's called neutral because in a properly installed case there is no potential to ground. All of the potential is on the hot lead.

I urge people to not mess with stuff they don't understand or have a working knowledge of.

I would suggest that "hot lead" is also a misnomer. Primary (sometimes called "hot") and common are opposite sides of the same thing. AC current oscillates between the two wires and both are essentially the same.


Cheers,

Gus


You have good points. I will try to improve my understanding of this subject.

Bill
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Is a 1/2 truth a lie. Depends on which half you have!

Postby eamarquardt » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:21 am

Half of the alternating current goes through the primary and the other half goes through the common. Patently false-all the current goes through both the neurtal/common and the primary/hot (unless there is a problem)

I am not sure what is not to understand. - I agree!

Alternating current means just that. The current oscillates between primary and common! - I agree!

I would suggest that both of the terms "hot" and "neutral" are misleading.- I don't agree!

The best terms are primary and common.- I don't agree!

Both are essentially the same and just opposite sides of the same alternating current. - I don't agree!

Although you could argue that we are only aguing semantics, I don't agree. The common as you call it is grounded!!!!!!! Thus is has no potential to ground which is the reference point in most elecrical circuits in America. If the common/neurtral weren't connected to ground then all of your explanations would be true, but it aint so here in the good ol USA!!!!



Grounding one side of the A/C circuit changes a lot of rules that one must abide by or DIE!!!!!! If the primary and common are essentially the same, then I suggest you go out to your service box and in bare feet touch first the common/neutral bus. You should do ok if your house is wired correctly. Then, still in your bare feet, touch one of the two primary or hot buses (you should have two if your house is not a true antique). If you survive, I am wrong (or you were thrown back and disconnected yourself from the circuit). If you expire, then the common/neurtal is fundamentally different from the primary/hot in some way. That difference is ground!

Calling the hot in a house primary is misleading. You have two of them so is one really primary and is there a secondary? They are both HOT! Just 180degrees out of phase with one another.

You understand what you are talking about, but others may or may not. Saying the hot and neutral are essentially the same might lead some unsuspecting soul to wire the hot to the neutral side of the socket. There is a reason that the hot is on the right side of the socket as you face it. Miswiring, compounded by another error, could be fatal to someone that doesn't understand the finer points.

As Klatu said: "I find it works well to get me from one planet to another" (or something like that), you are right in some respects, but if you don't pay attention to the differences between what I call hot and neutral, you'll end up in heaven (or somewhere else) sooner than you had hoped!

By the way, while I was writing this, my wife turned on the light in her office tripping the circuit breaker and dousing my office electricity also. The light switch in her office, after 30 years of service, took this exact point in time to fail during an elecrical discussion. Will replace the switch tomorrow following my understanding of our world. Wierd!!!!!

Cheers,

Gus

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