yet another homemade air conditioner thread.

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yet another homemade air conditioner thread.

Postby Aaron Coffee » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:52 pm

Got thinking today, if a person pumped chilled water through like a heater core/air condtioner condensor/tranny cooler, then blew through that with a fan, would that provide any kind of cooling? I'm sure someone else has thought of this, and sure there is a reason why this wouldn't work.
Thoughts?
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Postby madjack » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:01 pm

Aaron, Google Kooleraire and you will find a commercial unit that works on that principle...soldiers over in the MidEast have made there own versions as well...they will work in areas in which the humidity is low...such as South Dakota....................
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Postby chorizon » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 pm

This would work pretty good if you had a large supply of cool water. Even here in central Texas there are rivers and creeks with cold water in them. Run a hose down to the creek and pump the water up to your heat exchanger.
Sounds like a fun experiment. :thumbsup:
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Postby Aaron Coffee » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:35 pm

I was kind of thinking of using a cooler with an as yet undetermined amount of ice to water ratio. will have to scrounge around and see what parts I can come up with cheap and experiment.
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Postby xrover » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:42 pm

I used to drive an old non-aircon landrover, and it was not uncommon to take towels, soaked in water, and then hung over open windows while driving. That worked.
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Postby mrchuc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:35 pm

I don't remember where, but somewhere on the internet (maybe it was mentioned in a thread on this forum! I'm too old to keep my mental index up to date.:?) Anyway, I saw a report from a college student who made his own very cheap air conditioner. If I remember correctly he had a large barrel into which he put water and ice. He then connected a hose from that to a coil of copper tubing that was attached to a large fan. The ice water ran through the tubing and was routed out the window. The fan blew through the coil like it does in a car heater. He reported that it worked in his bedroom.

I don't remember how much water and ice was needed, but it was an interesting experiment. Sounds a lot like what you are thinking of. Perhaps you could google homemade air conditioner...

Good luck! :thumbsup:
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Postby kennyrayandersen » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:09 am

mrchuc wrote:I don't remember where, but somewhere on the internet (maybe it was mentioned in a thread on this forum! I'm too old to keep my mental index up to date.:?) Anyway, I saw a report from a college student who made his own very cheap air conditioner. If I remember correctly he had a large barrel into which he put water and ice. He then connected a hose from that to a coil of copper tubing that was attached to a large fan. The ice water ran through the tubing and was routed out the window. The fan blew through the coil like it does in a car heater. He reported that it worked in his bedroom.

I don't remember how much water and ice was needed, but it was an interesting experiment. Sounds a lot like what you are thinking of. Perhaps you could google homemade air conditioner...

Good luck! :thumbsup:


The only problem with that is if you use your own freezer to make the ice then there is a net loss of heat because of the work you had to do to remove the heat from the water to make the ice. The heat that you remove is dumped into the dwelling by the freezer. There is more heat generated by the home-brew AC unit so in the end he could probably just run a fan… Now if you by ice – you might as well save you some trouble building a contraption and just sit on it!
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ac

Postby MRW » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:25 pm

They use to make a unit for homes called a Hasting Coil made in Hasting Nebraska ,nothing more than a large copper tube radiator with alum fins about 18" thick you ran your homes cold water line thru it and then either dumped the exhaust water down a drain or do what we did and tap it into a outside hydrant and run a lawn sprinkler. In the small house I grew up in in south west Nebraska it worked very well and without a lot of water running through it however my dad's house was close to the city water tower and right off the main line so water temp was about 50-55 I also ended up with one in my house when i moved back for several years but we were farther away from the tower and not off the main feed. It worked to keep our house cool but not near as cold as my Dads got, also those coils pulled a lot of cold out of the water so I have no idea how much of a cold water supply you need for a portable unit. Also when the humidity got high they will sweat like crazy the tube out of the case use to almost look like it was running a steady stream of condensed water
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Postby 8 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:29 pm

I know someone who can get me new auto parts at cheaper than junkyard prices. So, I thought about using a heater core/melting ice setup myself. I've seen the great reveiws for the Koolerair. I've put some thought into this and decided against it. My math below is why. I could be wrong. I always seem to miss some mundane detail.

Humans put off about 250 BTUs of heat per hour when sleeping.
(http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/514275)

Ice requires 144 BTUs to melt one pound.
(http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/iticehou.html)

So, to remove the heat generated by two people (and ignoring that it is hot outside) you would need 250*2/144=3.47222 pounds of ice per hour. Eight hours would be 27 pounds melted but still around 33 degrees.

The cold water (melted ice) warming to 72 degrees would consume another 40 BTUs per pound. (same link as above) 27*40/500=2.16 more hours until the 27 pounds water is 72 degrees.

But none of this accounts for air replacement. And instead of figuring out how to keep a closed system cool, instead, let's see what it would take to take outside air and cool it as it enters and blows on the occupants who are down low and hopefully, the warm air is rising and being exhausted out the top. For this, we need three variables. We need the outside temp, the desired temp of the air as it blows inside, and we need the volume of air exchanged.

Since it was over 80 degrees before 8am when I got in my truck for work this morning, lets use an outside temp of 90 degrees, a desired breeze of 75 degrees, and an exchange rate of 7*4*5=140 cubic feet exchanged each five minutes. (I make this up as I go along. I don't know if that is enough air exchange to be comfortable)

It takes 0.018 BTUs to raise (or give off to drop) one cubic foot of air one degree.
(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_btu%27s_does_it_take_to_heat_up_1_cubic_foot_of_air_1_degree)

So we need to drop 15 degrees * 140 cubic feet * 12 times per hour * 0.018 BTUs = 453.6 BTUs per hour.

Divide 453.6/144=3.15 pounds of ice melted per hour. This is only .32 pounds less per hour than the first scenario.

So yes, you can be more comfortable using this than using just a fan, but to get AC quality cooling, you'll need a lot of ice. Other things to consider are the size of the heater core/radiator. Maybe it would be better to use several smaller heater cores in series instead of one bigger one. It won't change the math above, but it might (big might) change how much humidity is removed as the air passes over the fins. The slower the air moves, the more it should be chilled by the cores and more humidity should condense. But the faster the breeze moves across your skin, the greater the "wind chill" factor. And if you can dry the air more, than your body's perspiration evaporates quicker cooling you off quicker.

Now as some people said...if you are near an unlimited supply of cold water and just want to pump it through, it should work. I wouldn't want a big mud puddle left from using a campgrounds hose connection all night and I'm not sure they would want you to use up their water for that purpose, but it would work. I like the cold stream idea as well. But since I live in FL, unless you tap into a spring, the water will be too warm to do any cooling. Even the spring water is around 70 degrees here.

digress here...

How about sticking a water bed mattress into your teardrop. Fill it with tap water as long as it is cool. Say it is 5 wide by 6 long by .5 deep. That's 15 cubic feet of water. 15 * 62 pounds per cubic foot = 930 pounds of water. (I hope you have GOOD suspension) Oh, and a BTU is the energy required to raise one pound of water one degree. (at 59 degrees. At other temps it is close as long as it is not 32 or 212 degrees where the change of state requires lots more energy.) So, you have 930 BTUs absorbed for every degree the water can raise until it is too warm to be comfortable. Then just sleep on the cold mattress. Say it is 70 degree water and it would still be comfortable at 75. Then you have 930*5=4650 BTUs total and for two people (500 BTUs/hour) it could last one night at 9.3 hours. But when you consider that most of your heat will go up and out the vent, then the cool mattress will stay cool even longer. If it is too cold to sleep on, place a couple sheet between you and the mattress.

back on topic...

I guess we could ask people who have AC units what the smallest BTU rating is that would be considered comfortable in a teardrop. A PetKool removes 2500 BTUs/hour? That's the same BTUs removed as melting 13.6 pounds of ice per hour and raising the melted water to 72 degrees. Does anyone have a plug-in AC unit that doesn't cut it? If so, what is it's BTU rating? Is the teardrop insulated? What were the weather conditions when it didn't work? From what I have read in this forum, I think the PetKool has the lowest BTU rating and it still may be overkill for a teardrop except in the most severe heat.

Disclaimer. I did most of this math as I was typing this out. If you see a mistake, please, please, please correct me. I'm a computer guy, not an AC guy. So I tried to state my sources. If they are wrong, talk to the guys who wrote the Internet.
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Postby Aaron Coffee » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:26 pm

Nobody told me math was invovled. Thought I had found a air conditioner condensor(out of a car)to experiment with but apparently it had water in it this winter and a bunch of the tubes where split.
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Postby chorizon » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:39 pm

Aaron Coffee wrote:Nobody told me math was invovled.


Yeah, what 8 hammered out up there has been on my mind. Thermodynamics is tricky stuff, but there is no reason not to just experiment.*** I haven't checked his figures, but there is a reason an AC and other similar devices require the amount of power that they do. They are removing a decent amount of heat.

That is why I first suggested a relatively infinite source of cool water to be used, otherwise, you'd be buying lots and lots of ice. If it worked, camping next to a cool stream and using that water would be excellent.

I've been on many a tubing trip in the summer when its 105 outside, but the Guadalupe River coming out of Canyon Dam is around 65 degrees. That is a heck of a temperature differential, seems like it must be utilized! :thumbsup:


*** I'd start with a fan as large if not a little larger than my heat exchanger, and make sure it has enough power to not bog down while blowing through it. The flow of the pump should be sufficent enough so there isn't a significant drop in temp between the supply and return lines of the "coolant". Temp drop is actually a good thing, however, because it means you have wrung some of the heat out of the outside air and put it into the return line. Remember also that just because your heat exchanger is cold, the air flowing through it will not be nearly as cold once it gets to where it can do some good (a few feet away). Sorry, I won't turn this into an essay on the laws of thermodynamics. Experimentation should yield some satisfactory results.
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Postby AZSpyder » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:33 pm

For whatever it's worth here is a company using the ice water air conditioning method in their fully enclosed motorcycle sidecars.

http://www.hannigantrikes.com/content/sidecars.html

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How home air conditioners are rated!

Postby eamarquardt » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:35 pm

Home sized air conditioners are rated in TONs. A TON of air conditioning is the amount needed to convert one ton of 32F water to 32F ice a day. The point being: air conditioning takes a LOT of energy or its equilavent in ice.

Also if the heat absorber isn't really cold, it won't get the humidity out of the air and it may be cooler but you won't be comfortable due to the increase in relative humidity (if you are in a humid area).

But, if you get something cheap to work and meet your needs, that's the name of the game. Why not go for it!!

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Postby madjack » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:46 pm

...I truly don't remember exactly BUT in the dim recesses of my mind(lotssa cob webs up there), it seems that 1 ton of AC is equal to 12,000BTUs...this actually has no bearing on the discussion at hand and may be COMPLETELY wrong(excellent discalimer...HUH)...

Keep in mind, regardless of geographic location, at one time, all commercial AC's were water towers(many still are)...we even did an evaporative cooler in my Grandmothers African Violet house...it definitely kept it cooler...just was rather damp and humid...evap coolers, cold water chillers and KoolerAire type units work better and better as the humidity gets lower and lower................
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Cooling towers!

Postby eamarquardt » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:04 pm

As far as cooling towers being the "heart and soul" of some working air conditioning systems, I don't know!

What I do know is that systems are sometimes cascaded. You use one system to cool another system, which then cools another system, which is used to cool another system,.............(I'm exagerating but you can get my drift).

So some cooling towers are used to cool other technologies that cool the actual building. This is a fact, as I managed a building that did this. The water tower cooled a conventional system with refrigerant.

Hope this clears things up (ha!).

Cheers,

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