Random Thought

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Random Thought

Postby TonyCooper » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:35 pm

"Since the Sierra Club was the lead organization suing to stop reinforcing the New Orleans, LA levees, wouldn't it be appropriate if someone sued the Sierra Club to force them to reimburse everyone for the consequential damage. It's only about $350 billion. They could even pay by cash or check." —Green Bay, Wisconsin
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Postby IraRat » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:46 pm

Well, my spin on the Sierra Club is to thank them for trying to protect the planet so it's still around for my kids to enjoy.
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Postby Nitetimes » Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:46 pm

TonyCooper wrote:"Since the Sierra Club was the lead organization suing to stop reinforcing the New Orleans, LA levees, wouldn't it be appropriate if someone sued the Sierra Club to force them to reimburse everyone for the consequential damage. It's only about $350 billion. They could even pay by cash or check." —Green Bay, Wisconsin


I'd have to agree with you there, that sounds like a mighty fine idea. All they'd have to do is sell off some of those SUV's they drive around in and send in the proceeds and the gas money they use in them too.


IraRat wrote:Well, my spin on the Sierra Club is to thank them for trying to protect the planet so it's still around for my kids to enjoy.


Interesting spin you got, only problem is if they get their way there won't be any people around to enjoy what they think they are saving. And if there is they'll be wearing fig leaves if they can find one that fell off the tree on it's own. And they'll all be livin' with younse down that way cause there won't be any way to make heat to stay up here.
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Postby TonyCooper » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:19 pm

IraRat wrote:Well, my spin on the Sierra Club is to thank them for trying to protect the planet so it's still around for my kids to enjoy.


Ever see George Carlin's comedy routine on the planet earth? How long it has been here and the possibility on destroying it? Very funny - very accurate...

HENDRA: As you drift further away, from your viewpoint, what state is the planet in?

CARLIN: The planet is fine. The people are f****d. This planet has been here for four and a half billion years, we’ve been here for maybe, 150,000. The industrial revolution for what, 2-300 years. And we have the colossal arrogance to assume that we are going to have an effect on this planet that’s negative? Global warming included. The planet will take care of itself, it’s a self-correcting – in fact, I’ve a piece in my book about that too. I want to read it, because I want to tell it to you accurately.

This planet has put up with much worse than us. It’s been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, solar flares, sunspots, magnetic storms, pole reversals, planetary floods, worldwide fires, tidal waves, wind and water erosion, ice ages and hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets, asteroids, and meteors. You think a few plastic bags and aluminum cans are going to make a difference?

The planet isn’t going anywhere, folks, we are! We’re going away. Pack your s**t – we won’t leave much of a trace. Thank God for that. Nothing left. Maybe just a little Styrofoam. The planet will be here, and we’ll be gone. Another failed mutation; another closed-end biological mistake.

The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. And it will heal itself, because that what it does; it’s a self-correcting system. The air and water and earth will recover and be renewed. And if plastic isn’t really degradable, most likely the planet will incorporate it into a new paradigm: The Earth Plus Plastic.

The Earth doesn’t have a particular prejudice against plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. Perhaps she sees it as one of her many children. It could be the reason the Earth allowed us to be spawned here in the first place. She wanted plastic, but didn’t know how to get it!

Philosophers say, "Why are we here?" The planet says, "Plastic, a$$hole!"


Vulgar and irreverent, but true. Pure Carlin!
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Postby TonyCooper » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:22 pm

And they'll all be livin' with younse down that way cause there won't be any way to make heat to stay up here.


Nitetimes, you'll need AC down there. I grew up in Homestead without it and while it can be done, "it do get miserible" in the summer.

Ira, You use AC down there? With all that bad freon and all the CO2 belching out of the power plants to run it...

Opps wait a sec, Turkey Point down where I lived (5 miles east of Homestead) puts out the power, and its a combo plant! Fuel Oil and Nuclear! (While fishing, I used to have to dodge those Venezuelan oil barges running the channel in Biscayne Bay from the Gulf Stream to the plant on the coast...) hmmm.., That channel is manmade and a detriment to the ecology of Biscayne Bay.

Or worse yet, unnaturally heating up Biscayne Bay bigtime with those cooling canals from the Nuke Power Plant! Take a peek on Google Earth - one giant radiator just south of the plant and dumping all that hot exhaust water right into Biscayne Bay. We stopped eating the fish we caught there due to all the sores on them.

Not to mention all that radioacative waste that has to go somewhere. That plant should be nearing the end of it's useful life of 40 years... what then?

BTW, do you live right on the coast or just west in that reclaimed swamp land that is/was drained at the expense of the Everglades? With all that water being diverted east (to Biscayne Bay again - changing the salinity) and man attempting to manage the flow south into the Everglades... one year the place is on fire, the next year the deer's feet are rotting off from too much water.... hmmm...

and as I recall as a kid (1960's and 70's), we had a major problem with salt water intrusion into the aquifer due to being stressed (and dramatically shrinking) from over pumping... all to support that cozy lifestyle down there... That problem any worse???

Now Ira, if you were living the life of the Amish I would give a little more weight to your comments on the environment.

I just love the dichotomy of folks who support one view while living off the other. Ain't life wonderful...
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Postby cracker39 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:14 pm

Tony,

Some of the things you mention were caused directly by the US Army Corps of Engineers. The have screwed up much more than they have helped over the years.

Building the dyke around Lake Okechobee for "flood control", and the building of Aligaror Alley practically stopped the flow of water into the everglades, which is what has ruined it. The canals they have dug to allow precious fresh water flow to the ocean instead of the Everglades was lunacy.

The cross-state barge canal was started in the 40s, then abandoned. But, did they learn? No, they started it up again later in the century, dammed up the Ocklawaha River and put in locks, and ruined that river forever unless they blow up the locks and let the water flor naturally again to the ocean at Jacksonville. Oh yeah, they finally abandoned the barge canal project again after the damage was done.

now, they have dug canals from the St. Johns river to the intercoastal water way, again, changing the natural water flow. Then, they "straightened out" the Kissimmee river, once again...the natural water flow was changed. Everytime they do this, they mess with nature and MESS IT UP. Won't they ever learn that there are designs by nature that shouldn't be screwed up????????

The Corps has stuck it to us for years, creating ecological disasters all around the county, then picking up their marbles and going somewhere else, leaving the damage behind. Ok, they may do some good, but it
s the blunders that I remember. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. The mention of the everglades being drained just sets me off.
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Postby TonyCooper » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:39 pm

I hear you... "For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction".... usually unexpected!

The Herbert Hoover Dike surrounding Lake Okeechobee was put in place after the deadly 1929 hurricane flooded the lake and the resulting storm surge drowned just under 2000 folks. It was the 2nd most deadly storm in US history.

That said, I agree with much of what you say. The cross state canal was a stupid idea. And check out the Mississippi River projects all the way up to North Dakota.

The only real solution to any of this mess is to recognize that a given area can only support so many folks without "unnatural acts". And then the folks who choose to live in those areas need to accept the responsibility to take care of themselves when a killer storm targets them...

If the government keeps paying folks to rebuild in dangerous (coastal) areas, then folks have no incentive to ever move to a more safe (and ultimately more prosperous) area.

Read about Indianola, Tx. Once the 2nd largest port in Texas, now a ghost town - whats left of it - deserted... after 2 killer storms within 20 years in the late 1800's wiped the city out. I think the population in the area is less then 100 today. And Indianola is now submerged in the Gulf.

One interesting fact about Indianola... that's where the US Army (circa 1850's - Jeff Davis was Sec of War) brought camels into the west to test / replace horses.

All of what you say is based on one underlying factor. Trying to support too many people in sensitive ecological areas...

At least that's my opinion.
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Postby davidbyrum » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:00 am

Here's an article with a different viewpoint which shows how the administration was making desperate attempts to find someone to blame (part of the Karl rove spin strategy)

E-mail suggests government seeking to blame groups

By Jerry Mitchell
[email protected]

Federal officials appear to be seeking proof to blame the flood of New Orleans on environmental groups, documents show.

The Clarion-Ledger has obtained a copy of an internal e-mail the U.S. Department of Justice sent out this week to various U.S. attorneys' offices: "Has your district defended any cases on behalf of the (U.S.) Army Corps of Engineers against claims brought by environmental groups seeking to block or otherwise impede the Corps work on the levees protecting New Orleans? If so, please describe the case and the outcome of the litigation."

Cynthia Magnuson, a spokeswoman for the Justice Department, said Thursday she couldn't comment "because it's an internal e-mail."

Shown a copy of the e-mail, David Bookbinder, senior attorney for Sierra Club, remarked, "Why are they (Bush administration officials) trying to smear us like this?"

The Sierra Club and other environmental groups had nothing to do with the flooding that resulted from Hurricane Katrina that killed hundreds, he said. "It's unfortunate that the Bush administration is trying to shift the blame to environmental groups. It doesn't surprise me at all."

Federal officials say the e-mail was prompted by a congressional inquiry but wouldn't comment further.

Whoever is behind the e-mail may have spotted the Sept. 8 issue of National Review Online that chastised the Sierra Club and other environmental groups for suing to halt the corps' 1996 plan to raise and fortify 303 miles of Mississippi River levees in Louisiana, Mississippi and Arkansas.

The corps settled the litigation in 1997, agreeing to hold off on some work until an environmental impact could be completed. The National Review article concluded: "Whether this delay directly affected the levees that broke in New Orleans is difficult to ascertain."

The problem with that conclusion?

The levees that broke causing New Orleans to flood weren't Mississippi River levees. They were levees that protected the city from Lake Pontchartrain levees on the other side of the city.

When Katrina struck, the hurricane pushed tons of water from the Gulf of Mexico into Lake Pontchartrain, which borders the city to the north. Corps officials say the water from the lake cleared the levees by 3 feet. It was those floodwaters, they say, that caused the levees to degrade until they ruptured, causing 80 percent of New Orleans to flood.

Bookbinder said the purpose of the litigation by the Sierra Club and others in 1996 was where the corps got the dirt for the project. "We had no objections to levees," he said. "We said, 'Just don't dig film materials out of the wetlands. Get the dirt from somewhere else.' "

If you listen to what some conservatives say about environmentalists, he said, "We're responsible for most of the world's ills."

In 1977, the corps wanted to build a 25-mile-long barrier and gate system to protect New Orleans on the east side. Both environmental groups and fishermen opposed the project, saying it would choke off water into Lake Pontchartrain.

After litigation, corps officials abandoned the idea, deciding instead to build higher levees. "They came up with a cheaper alternative," Bookbinder said. "We didn't object to raising the levees."

John Hall, a spokesman for the corps in New Orleans, said the barrier the corps was proposing in the 1970s would only stand up to a weak Category 3 hurricane, not a Category 4 hurricane like Katrina. "How much that would have prevented anything, I'm not sure," he said.

Since 1999, corps officials have studied the concept of building huge floodgates to prevent flooding in New Orleans from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane.

Although the Federal Emergency Management Agency in 2001 listed a hurricane striking New Orleans as one of the top three catastrophic events the nation could face (the others being a terrorist attack on New York City and an earthquake in San Francisco), funding for corps projects aimed at curbing flooding in southeast Louisiana lagged.

U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., has said the White House cut $400 million from corps' requests for flood control money in the area.

In fiscal 2006, the corps had hoped to receive up to $10 million in funding for a six-year feasibility study on such floodgates. According to a recent estimate, the project would take 10 years to build and cost $2.5 billion.

"Our understanding is the locals would like to go to that," Hall said. "If I were local, I'd want it."
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Postby doug hodder » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:12 am

My only Hurricane post....as a Geologist and a Geographer....if you live in a bowl next to a river that drains approximately 60% of the continental US and subject to the powers of the storms that are in the Gulf....you're gonna have problems...and no matter how much money anyone throws at the situation, whether they did it in the 50's or the 90's. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Etc, through Bush 2..you still live in a bowl!!!....bowls catch water.....There's no fortress that can be built that can't be won over by or nature...the only sad thing is that I'm sure it will be built all over again in a flood plain, a bowl....Doug
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Postby madjack » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:33 am

...one thing you may be assured of is that whatever is done in and for New Orleans, WILL BE WRONG. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast.
My take...bulldoze most of the flooded areas and backfill to the height of the present levies and require all buildings to be built on 3' high piers or on fill to the same height, at least then, when the 500 yr "PERFECT STORM" comes and floods the city again, the flood water will have somewhere to go besides into the "bowl" portion of the city
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p.s. I know that I argued against this remedy in the past but it is the only way to keep what has happened twice in a month from ever happening again
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Postby TonyCooper » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:27 am

doug hodder wrote:My only Hurricane post....as a Geologist and a Geographer....if you live in a bowl next to a river that drains approximately 60% of the continental US and subject to the powers of the storms that are in the Gulf....you're gonna have problems...and no matter how much money anyone throws at the situation, whether they did it in the 50's or the 90's. Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Etc, through Bush 2..you still live in a bowl!!!....bowls catch water.....There's no fortress that can be built that can't be won over by or nature...the only sad thing is that I'm sure it will be built all over again in a flood plain, a bowl....Doug


BRAVO!!!! Sanity and reason!


My humble proposal -
Bulldoze all the flood damaged areas, remove the levees, let the Mississippi River flow where ever it wants, make the area a "Mississippi Delta Nat'l Park" so it won't be built in again.

The areas that didn't flood (French Qtr, etc) can be saved to capture the culture and traditions of the Old City. Move the larger city 40 miles northwest to higher safe ground.
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Postby cracker39 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:45 am

No matter what is done in the way of preparedness, there will always be ecological disasters of such massive proportions, like these two hurricanes, that we will not able to prevent from happening. I think building a city as low as New Orleans, with bodies of water higher than the city streets just waiting to be dirverted into the city was a bad idea. But, then, it wasn't planned. The city just grew up in the bowl because it was convenient to shipping and trade. They built levies to keep the water out, but it was just not enough to cope with these storms. However, do you see the city being razed, then raised, and rebuilt to prevent it from happening again? I don't. The general opinion will probably be that this was a once in a lifetime event and they will go on thinking they are safe from now on. Don't place odds on nature's happenings.

And, people just can't accept that nature may have been the major culprit and will always try to find someone to blame.
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Postby davidbyrum » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:57 am

The rebuilding of areas that are flood prone or prone to all types of natural disasters is something that I can agree on. Great thought most be taken before rebuilding all of these area at great gov't cost only to be flooded again. With each natural disaster the costs of damages is going up. Is it because the hurricanes are more severe? Not really, it's that we have put more and more property and homes in harm's way then there used to be. If someone builds within a mile of the coastline, federal flood insurance should probably not be available. Unfortunatlely, many of our policies encorage developers to build in dangerous areas because the gov't agrees to build the roads, bridges, and infastructure and taxpayer cost only to rebuild them again after the storms.
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Re: Random Thought

Postby Joseph » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:00 am

TonyCooper wrote:"Since the Sierra Club was the lead organization suing to stop reinforcing the New Orleans, LA levees, wouldn't it be appropriate if someone sued the Sierra Club to force them to reimburse everyone for the consequential damage...."

I've seen a few other posts blaming the Sierra Club, but what do you have to back it up? The group that actually brought the suit was Save Our Wetlands" (SOWL), and while I haven't looked all that hard, I can't find an obvious connection between the two outside of somne shared goals.

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Postby Joseph » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:17 am

davidbyrum wrote:U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., has said the White House cut $400 million from corps' requests for flood control money in the area.

Fact is. the Bush administration has thrown MORE money at Louisiana for flood control than any other in history and the ACoE gets more of your tax dollars to spend there than they do for any other state in the union.

Go ask Senator Landrieu where the money went that they DID get. It didn't go to flood control...

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