storage container fot my lil guy 5wide platform

[kennyrayandersen]

How much did it increase your tongue weight? ...and what is your tongue weight?

I'd like to ask the very same question... not only are there large-volume tongue boxes capable of swallowing many heavy objects shown in this thread's posted pictures, but there are 70+ lb lead acid batteries on the tongues, too.

Tongue weight is a critical consideration. Even if a Jeep or other truck can carry much weight over it's rear axle, some hitches are limited in thier veritcal load capacity. Too much tongue weight can also affect tow vehicle handling and safety by reducing the front axle's steering and braking traction, especially in wet conditions.

I thought the same thing when everybody was flashing pictures and saying theirs was bigger than the next guys...

Some of those boxes look like you could put 1/2 a beef in them! That, and they are right near the hitch. I'd say don't go crazy if you have a modest tow vehicle...

[wlooper89]

How much did it increase your tongue weight? ...and what is your tongue weight?

Tongue weight is a critical consideration. Even if a Jeep or other truck can carry much weight over it's rear axle, some hitches are limited in thier veritcal load capacity. Too much tongue weight can also affect tow vehicle handling and safety by reducing the front axle's steering and braking traction, especially in wet conditions.

You both started me thinking about tongue weight. I had never really weighed it. This morning I found the tongue weight to be 270 lbs with the tongue box and propane tank attached. I estimate the total trailer weight empty except for the tongue box and tank to be 1125 lbs. That comes out to 24% of weight on the tongue. Then I load 275 lbs of camping gear onto the trailer floor, with the heavier things in the rear. This brings the total trailer weight to about 1400 lbs for towing. I have not weighed the tongue with everything loaded and would like to do that. My tow vehicle has a curb weight of 4365 lbs and the trailer seems to tow well.

My tongue box and contents weigh 140 lbs and the propane tank about 25 lb. This link is to another view of my trailer platform. A 78 lb battery sits beneath the converter.
http://tnttt.com/album_ ... c_id=46453

Another consideration may be whether the trailer needs brakes if a lot of weight is added. I had to make an emergency stop on a recent trip and that caused me to consider brakes, even though my trailer is still below the 1500 lb limit for towing without trailer brakes in certain states. Other states allow a greater trailer weight without brakes. For example in GA it is 2500 lbs. Little Guy uses an axle with a flange for brakes on each side. That makes it a lot easier to add them after market if one wants to do that. I do not want to digress too much from tongue boxes, but this is a list of brake requirements by state, in case someone may be interested.
http://www.marinemechanic.com/site/page29.html

Bill

[teardrop_focus]

iOpine

That's where Little Guy mounted the deep-cycle battery. I thought it was strange, but it certainly is handy. Since it's so close to the hitch I don't think the weight of the battery should be included when figuring hitch weight to gross weight percentage

I'm not quoting you to argue, I'm only seeking clarification.

Would you mind 'splaining "Since it's so close to the hitch I don't think the weight of the battery should be included when figuring hitch weight to gross weight percentage"?
Although I feel I should be able to, I can't quite wrap my head around that one. Maybe I need more coffee... and it's already late morning here.

Tongue weight empty with that battery there is ~165 lbs. Tongue weight fully loaded is about 230 lbs. (I stash 160 lbs. of gear behind the axle in the hatch and "trunk," which only partially offsets the 126 lbs of a fully loaded tongue box since it's much closer to the axle. Yes, I weighed all the stuff.)

Excellent. You do realize that most peope won't weight anything...

The V8 4Runner's hitch is rated at up to 700 lbs and she sits almost level front to back when hitched to the TD. (it usually sits an inch higher in the back.)

We have no trouble with trailer sway in any conditions, including steep mountain roads and offroad. And in spite of a tongue weight higher than 10% (but less than 15%), with this combination handling is exceptional.

Personally, I like to see the tug sit with a slight forward rake, as yours does. Outstanding!

When towing with a proper (bigger, full-sized) trucks, beefed Jeeps, etc, I've always been instructed to seek 10-15% although the chart I quoted in my prior post mentions only 10%.

It is only with softer-sprung passenger cars, be they full-size or mid-size that no more than 10% should be adhered to in my opinion.

Compact cars such as many hatchbacks should stick to 8% or less, but the operators should be very aware of how the trailer is loaded. With such light tongue weights, there shouldn't be too much weight too far aft of the trailer axle as that may also contribute to instability.

Fully loaded trailer weight is ~1750 lbs. This TD has a heavy duty frame with steel skid plates.

It also has heavy 31" MT tires. I load an additional 300 lbs of gear in it for an extended trip. Again, this combination wouldn't work well with some vehicles, but works great with mine.

It sounds as though it would. I envy you your off-road, go-anywhere, heavy duty combination!




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wlo0per

You both started me thinking about tongue weight.

Don't forget about Mark/Sid. He started it. I perpetuated it. You've the names mixed up.




Seriously, though... that's what this place, this forum's all about. We've been given a metric ton of experience here to help us in building our teardrops... if there's anything we can do to contribute to making your time on the road safer and more enjoyable... even if it's just a tongue weight reminder... then that makes our day complete.

The neat thing about electric brakes is that they're very straightforward to install after the fact... (save for the underdash installation of the control unit then wiring to the tow connection... although many newer trucks arrive pre-wired for these items) and the fact that an electric braking system doesn't add too much weight. I believe the brake drums are the heaviest obects but the benefits of having brakes on ALL axles of your vehicle combination are immense.

[wlooper89]

Don't forget about Mark/Sid. He started it. I perpetuated it. You've the names mixed up.

Sorry, did not mean to leave out anyone. I should have read the topic again. One thing I have not mentioned is that Little Guy has a couple of different model lines. On the one I have an electrical system was an option and I decided to add that after market. This is why I count the battery I installed as additional platform weight. LG must have meant for things to be carried on the tongue platform. One model has a larger platform designed to carry an ATV or two motorcycles. But I guess the main things are weight on the hitch ball compared to total trailer weight and whether the trailer and tow vehicle ride well together.

Wish I knew a place to easily measure the tongue and trailer weights. Any ideas on that? My bathroom scales are not up to the job although they did measure tongue weight. Truck stop scales might do it although they are designed for 80,000 lbs or more, and I am not sure if they would want to wait while I unhitch the trailer.

I suppose one could weigh the tow vehicle with the trailer attached but with trailer wheels not on the scales. Then pull forward until just the trailer wheels are on the scales. Next drive away a short distance, unhitch and bring the tow vehicle back to weigh alone. I believe a little simple arithmetic could sort out the tongue weight and total trailer weight. Perhaps the landfill would let me weigh it.

Bill

[iOpine]

Would you mind 'splaining "Since it's so close to the hitch I don't think the weight of the battery should be included when figuring hitch weight to gross weight percentage"?

Well, I'm no engineer, but intuitively it seems that since the battery weight is only about a foot behind the hitch ball that it wouldn't have the same impact on resistance to sway that it would were it located midway between the hitch and the axle.

It's much easier to swing a bat with added weight at the handle than it is to swing it with the same added weight at the end of the bat. Of course, this thinking could be all wrong, 'cause, like I say, this is not my bailiwick.

[wlooper89]

Would you mind 'splaining "Since it's so close to the hitch I don't think the weight of the battery should be included when figuring hitch weight to gross weight percentage"?

Well, I'm no engineer, but intuitively it seems that since the battery weight is only about a foot behind the hitch ball that it wouldn't have the same impact on resistance to sway that it would were it located midway between the hitch and the axle.

It's much easier to swing a bat with added weight at the handle than it is to swing it with the same added weight at the end of the bat. Of course, this thinking could be all wrong, 'cause, like I say, this is not my bailiwick.

That is an interesting point and it seems correct with regard to a bat. I am also not an engineer and wonder if when it comes to trailer sway, does one want the bat to be easier or harder to swing? Perhaps one of our resident experts can answer that. I have always heard reducing tongue weight is a good thing, up to a point. Of course we need to have some weight on the tongue.

From my own observation I have noticed that at parking lot speeds or from a stop, the trailer initially tracks opposite the direction of a turn. This effect is more pronounced because I have an extended 16" ballmount. My understanding is that this can also initiate sway at higher speeds.

Bill

[kennyrayandersen]

Would you mind 'splaining "Since it's so close to the hitch I don't think the weight of the battery should be included when figuring hitch weight to gross weight percentage"?

Well, I'm no engineer, but intuitively it seems that since the battery weight is only about a foot behind the hitch ball that it wouldn't have the same impact on resistance to sway that it would were it located midway between the hitch and the axle.

It's much easier to swing a bat with added weight at the handle than it is to swing it with the same added weight at the end of the bat. Of course, this thinking could be all wrong, 'cause, like I say, this is not my bailiwick.

When the mass of the trailer is at the ends (barbell -- weights at the end) a thing is harder to rotate, when the mass is near the center, it's easier (as if the barbell weights were shifted to the center of the barbell). So, though it seams it would be easier to push the weight if it were near the hitch, it's actually harder (maybe a little counter intuitive, but there you go) to rotate the trailer, which makes it harder to control. A tear is pretty light, and a battery probably won't suddenly make the trailer go nuts necessarily, but the tendency is a reality. If you keep the weight near the center, you have more authority over the trailer and it's easier for the tow vehicle to make the trailer change directions. -- think ice skater. Hands out -- turns slow (harder to turn), hands in spins fast (turns easy).

P.S. YOu you got a big truck, it ain't a big deal, but if your tow vehicle is smaller, which many are, then it's more of an issue.

As far as weighing your trailer -- I have a rock retailer about a mile from my house and they have scales. Any truck scale can weigh it -- they have nice scales. If you tear isn't too heavy though -- not much wrong with a 'good', and by good I mean robust, bathroom scale -- it will get you close. Might want to keep the big tears off the wife's 'nice' bathroom scales though

[iOpine]

I'm enjoying this discussion and hope you guys are, too! I've learned a lot from you regarding how to set up my tear and camp comfortably in it over the last few months. So, onward and upward!!

When the mass of the trailer is at the ends (barbell -- weights at the end) a thing is harder to rotate, when the mass is near the center, it's easier (as if the barbell weights were shifted to the center of the barbell).

Great illustration. But in this case, there are two vehicles connected with a pivot point between them. When a weight is placed near the pivot (my battery) it doesn't affect rotation as much as it would if it were further from the pivot. As you say, "think ice skater." The weight of the battery is near the pivot, so maneuverability isn't affected noticeably. But it seems to me that resistance to trailer sway would also not be improved noticeably, which is why I didn't think it wise to include the weight of the battery that's practically sitting on the pivot when figuring tongue weight percentage. (Caveat: See new motto below.)

But whether you figure the tongue weight percentage with or without the battery it's still between 10-15%, so it should perform well and it does.

Although I'm relatively new to TDs I have lots of experience towing a variety of trailers. I could provide multiple submissions to a "dumbest thing you ever did towing a trailer thread." This current combination is extremely stable and maneuverable. I just towed it to Alaska and back: 8900+ miles in 21 days. High speeds, high winds, 9% grades, whatever, nary a wiggle.

It's Bill saying he needs to weigh his and he's considering adding brakes. I'd like to add my "yes" vote. This is the first trailer under 2000 lbs. I've owned that has them, and the peace of mind they provide for emergency situations on the highway is worth it.

Of course, in steep, loose declines off-road trailer brakes are essential. I'm not curious enough to find out what happens when the trailer decides to ask the 4X4 for a dance down the mountainside.

[kennyrayandersen]

When the mass of the trailer is at the ends (barbell -- weights at the end) a thing is harder to rotate, when the mass is near the center, it's easier (as if the barbell weights were shifted to the center of the barbell).

Great illustration. But in this case, there are two vehicles connected with a pivot point between them. When a weight is placed near the pivot (my battery) it doesn't affect rotation as much as it would if it were further from the pivot. As you say, "think ice skater." The weight of the battery is near the pivot, so maneuverability isn't affected noticeably. But it seems to me that resistance to trailer sway would also not be improved noticeably, which is why I didn't think it wise to include the weight of the battery that's practically sitting on the pivot when figuring tongue weight percentage. (Caveat: See new motto below.)

If I’m holding on to the skater and she is holding onto a weight, it is still harder to spin her (or him – it’s just hard to see a man in sequins!) even if I grab her by the weighted hand, and harder still if I grab her about the trunk; still, it would be easier to man handle her if she were either weightless or she were wearing the weight as a belt. Think of the trailer as a unit. It has its own mass moment of inertia independent of the tow vehicle. Where you latch onto it can make some difference etc. but I suddenly realized it getting to technical so I stopped – I don’t want to hurt anyone.

Here’s the deal. With a teardrop it doesn’t generally mater so much because most of the weight is near the axles – sweet! Putting a battery wherever won’t make that much difference. However, carrying the moose you just shot on the front of your Little Guy will change the rotation inertia a LOT. So if you are towing a moose laden tear with a Echo, let me know ahead of time so I can get off the road!

The main thing, like you said was keeping the tongue weight down to:

But whether you figure the tongue weight percentage with or without the battery it's still between 10-15%, so it should perform well and it does.

It's Bill saying he needs to weigh his and he's considering adding brakes. I'd like to add my "yes" vote. This is the first trailer under 2000 lbs. I've owned that has them, and the peace of mind they provide for emergency situations on the highway is worth it.

I second that!

[iOpine]

However, carrying the moose you just shot on the front of your Little Guy will change the rotation inertia a LOT.

Note to self: Strap moose to top of tear.

That should get some attention from the truckers!

[wlooper89]

Just for comparison, a Little Guy Sport model from a photo at their web site. I wonder about the tongue weight on this one. It must need a hefty tow vehicle. This is one reason I am trying not to worry about tongue weight too much as long as the tow vehicle front wheels appear to be firmly on the ground and the trailer rides okay. However I would still like to add trailer brakes.

Bill

[kennyrayandersen]

Just for comparison, a Little Guy Sport model from a photo at their web site. I wonder about the tongue weight on this one. It must need a hefty tow vehicle. This is one reason I am trying not to worry about tongue weight too much as long as the tow vehicle front wheels appear to be firmly on the ground and the trailer rides okay. However I would still like to add trailer brakes.

Bill

I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. I got a half ton pick-em-up truck that wouldn’t much care if it were 30 lb or 300lb worth of tongue, but my lil Toyota Echo is a whole nother thang; 300 lb of arse-load on that half pint would send the headlights skyward! So many of the cars pulling teardrops are quite modest, so real care hast to be exercised. If you are driving a tow vehicle that could pull a 20 footer, it’s really not much of an issue.