A question about tongue weight....

[McBrew]

Andrew, thanks for the info regarding tongue weight on Euro trailers. In Europe, it is extremely common to see subcompact cars. I was over in Europe about 2 months ago. While riding a bus through town, I started counting hitches on cars parked on the street... and about 1 out of 4 cars had hitches on them. Many of these cars are sub-100 hp cars. Nobody drives pickup trucks over there. Mini vans and SUVs aren't very common, and tend to be smaller than ours. The hitches over there are "swan neck" hitches, where there is just a ball -- no receiver. So, people with hitches are using them to tow, not to haul bicycles and such. I saw many small cars towing little trailers... about 4'x6' galvanized. I also saw some relatively large caravans (travel trailers) being towed by small cars and SUVs. I was really curious about the weight of them... they didn't look light.

My point, if I have one, is that towing with small cars is very common in many European countries... but not so common here in N.A. Car companies know that to sell their cars over there, they must be rated to tow a decent amount. Like I said before, over here they want to sell trucks to people who want to tow small trailers, and they are worried about lawsuits due to damage and/or injuries from towing mishaps.

In my store, I used to sell a sugar syrup in a can that is made in the UK. A customer of mine had his house nearly destroyed by a fire, and the only thing they could find in his basement (where the fire started) was an empty can of that sugar and a container of cleaning wipes. His insurance company sued Clorox, the british company, and my store for damages. Believe it or not, they ended up winning. Why? Because it would have cost all of us more in expert witnesses and lawyers to prove that an empty can of sugar and a box of cleaning wipes can't cause a fire. The British company promptly left the US market.

That shows you the kind of idiotic behavior that goes on in and out of our courthouses. I don't blame car companies for wanting to relieve themselves of any kind of legal responsibility.

[retnavycpo]

I suppose it's entirely possible that no damage/failure would happen as a result of continuing to tow my TD with the current tongue weight.

As mentioned, my car does not sag at all, and towing the TD is effortless.

But I still think if reinforcement is possible that perhaps that is the way to go. It would, if nothing else, give me piece of mind. Stress isn't something I need right now. Am in the middle of a divorce!

Pete

[GeneH]

I'm not a car buff Pete so I'll gladly leave the ideas about modifying your suspension to those that know.

What I can add is the results of an experiment I did last night.

With just my floor on the frame I measured my tongue weight at 116 pounds. I added about 130 pounds of sand in the galley area to simulate a camping load (battery, water, etc.)and it dropped to about 90 pounds.

Since I am building for rustic (no electricity) camping I planned for two 100 pound batteries and 7 gallons of water back there I figure it will drop a bit more but I ran out of sandbags.

My guess is that you will have to do more than just move the battery to meet your goal so looking at the car suspension mods might be your best bet.

Good Luck ... Gene

[CPlater]

Sorry for not getting back sooner but others have done a better job of explaining my point than I could.

Now for reducing the tongue weight there is really only two practical things that can be done give the constraints of your situation. One is to remove as much weight from in front of the axle as possible. Two, is to counter balance by adding aft of the axle. Not much can be gained (reduced) with number one so it would appear option two holds the most potential. I was in Harbor Freight today to pick up a swivel jack and an idea occurred to me as I was browsing the trailer section. There was a bolt on 2" receiver hitch that I was eyeballing as a way to mount my bicycle rack to the back of a trailer and it dawned on me that one of those cargo rack could also be mounted. Any weight added to the rack would be farther back than anything inside the trailer and have more leverage against the tongue. It would be a counter balance that was actually useful load. Don't know if it will solve the problem but it has possibilities.

[retnavycpo]

CPlater,

A member on the Tennessee Tearjerker forum suggested that very same modification just a few minutes ago!

Correct me if I am mistaken, but installing such a hitch on the rear of my TD would (in effect) lengthen the trailer, and THEN adding weight should lessen my tongue weight, right?

Pete

[CPlater]

CPlater,

A member on the Tennessee Tearjerker forum suggested that very same modification just a few minutes ago!

Correct me if I am mistaken, but installing such a hitch on the rear of my TD would (in effect) lengthen the trailer, and THEN adding weight should lessen my tongue weight, right?

Pete

Right. It is adding length to one side of the of a lever and fulcrum.

[retnavycpo]

Finally, I am getting somewhere. Positive vibes!!!

A quote from the movie, "Kellly's Heroes"

Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose!

Oddball (played by Donald Sutherland):





Pete

[SlyTerry]

Also keep in mind that in most of Europe most caravans (trailers in NA) have brakes required by law regardless of tongue weight , gross weight, total weight or country of origin...This remove most of the discussion about "can I tow this" and hence the higher towing capacities permitted by the Euro auto companies. Here in North America we somehow refuse to accept the fact that trailers with brakes are simply safer..... If the tow vehicle handles well, the trailer does not undually influence the tow vehicle and together they pose no risk to the public then why try to add 700 lbs to the ass end of a trailer designed for a pickup truck to sneak in under the manufaturers limited tongue weight for your vehicle. If you think its worth all this manipulation to marry these two vehicles is the effort then just tow it!!! It is sweet looking teardrop and you have said it tows well just enjoy it!!!!

[retnavycpo]

Thanks SlyTerry,

Well put.

Pete

[CPlater]

Who's talking about 700 pounds?

[SlyTerry]

If the length from the center of the axle (pivot point) to the hitch is 8 feet and the distance from the axle to the rear edge of the rear galley floor is about 1 foot...just guesstimating from the photo's it would take about 700 pounds hanging from the tail end to remove about 80 pounds from the tongue weight of the trailer.... which is what the poster was trying to accomplish....or did I miss something

[Creamcracker]

If the length from the center of the axle (pivot point) to the hitch is 8 feet and the distance from the axle to the rear edge of the rear galley floor is about 1 foot...just guesstimating from the photo's it would take about 700 pounds hanging from the tail end to remove about 80 pounds from the tongue weight of the trailer.... which is what the poster was trying to accomplish....or did I miss something

Which is why I suggeted he fill out the trailer balance spreadsheet so we would have accurate numbers.....
Philip

[retnavycpo]

If the length from the center of the axle (pivot point) to the hitch is 8 feet and the distance from the axle to the rear edge of the rear galley floor is about 1 foot...just guesstimating from the photo's it would take about 700 pounds hanging from the tail end to remove about 80 pounds from the tongue weight of the trailer.... which is what the poster was trying to accomplish....or did I miss something

Which is why I suggeted he fill out the trailer balance spreadsheet so we would have accurate numbers.....
Philip

I need to print that out, and get some measurements....

Pete

[angib]

Correct me if I am mistaken, but installing such a hitch on the rear of my TD would (in effect) lengthen the trailer, and THEN adding weight should lessen my tongue weight, right?

Yup, that's right.

However adding weight hung out the back is a quick way to make an unstable trailer. If your tow vehicle was a huge pickup, this might not be a problem, but if you're using most of the vehicle's tow rating, then you don't want an unstable trailer.

Andrew

[wlooper89]

My advice is do not under any circumstances try to manually lift the trailer tongue. Get a bolt on tongue jack or something similar if it is not already there. Your back is more important than manually lifting it. Trust me, I know from experiencing recent back surgery. My tongue weight is about 270 lbs (122 kgs) now.

Bill