Gulf coast

Things that don't fit anywhere else...

Postby caseydog » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:18 am

Sparksalot wrote:Decades of government intervention and control motivated by however well meaning causes which have forced the wells farther off shore into ever deeper water.


That is just plain wrong.

Oil Companies drill where the oil is. Period. There is a very substantial oil reserve under the Deep Water Horizon. That's why it was drilling there. It's a business decision. That well would never have been started if BP did not believe there was a lot of oil below it.

In most of the Gulf, shallow water drilling has been going on for decades, and those reserves are getting pretty well tapped. The move to deeper water is an effort to find NEW reserves.

Anti-government ideology does not change the reality that if you want to make money drilling for oil, it pays to drill where the oil is.

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Postby caseydog » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:41 am

Larwyn wrote:I too feel a great loss at what is happening to the Gulf. It could well be one of the most widespread disasters for Americans in our lifetime and it makes me very sad. But;

You would think that BP intentionally set out to destroy the Gulf of Mexico. It also sounds like everybody thinks they knows better than BP, how to clean up the mess. If everybody who has never tried to remove a drop crude oil from a tub of seawater would shut up, get out of the way, and let the peopled who know what they are doing do it the way they know how to do it, everybody would be better off.

If someone actually has a better way of handling the situation, I'm sure BP would not stand between them and that well. In fact, I'm sure they would be happy to pack their bags and go home, just let Obama, the press, the angry public and Rosie O'Donnel fix the situation. I think there's a better chance of John Wayne coming back from the grave, paddling out to the well in a birch bark canoe, calling the leak "Pilgrim" and then sitting back with a bottle of whisky while laughing and watching all that oil retreat cowardly back into the earth from which it came before the sun has fully set.

I have never before noticed a time when so many who knew so little about a subject were so critical of those who do know. They are beating the very ones who can help the most into the ground. If you really want to know who is ultimately responsible, it is each and every one of us who own anything with a gas tank on it, or plugs into the wall. Do not even mention solar, wind, coal and hydro power, none of them could exist as we know them without the petroleum products used during production and actual operation.

Whether the spill was due to procedure failure, equipment failure, system failure, or whatever, it was not some evil plan by BP. If you can help or take over and do a better job, get out there and do it, if not, why not just stay out of the way of those who can?

More than once, I have been in an electrical substation during a power outage, for the sole purpose of restoring power as soon as possible. Standing there with a multimeter in one hand and a telephone in the other with an angry city manager, utility director, or some other self important "big shot" demanding that I get the power back on right NOW. My standard answer was always; "Well, unless you know what the problem is, I am not going to be able to fix it while I am on this phone." I always found "angry encouragement" more of a distraction than an aid in getting the job done.

These are just my thoughts on the situation, I am not trying to change your own.


I actually agree with you, Larwyn. We don't do that very often. :lol:

BP definitely messed up. I think we all can agree on that. And, their "plan" to deal with a spill in deep water turned out to be inadequate. But BP didn't do this intentionally, and I do believe they are trying as hard as they can to deal with a situation that they were clearly not properly prepared for.

As bad as this thing is, the people working to stop this thing are the best option we have, IMO.

At this point, all I can do is hope they can stop this leak soon, and hold BP to their promise to pay for the mess.

If somewhere in the ranks at BP, someone put pressure on those below him to cut corners, those people should be punished. That's fair and just. But some of the things I hear about taking over BP or sending the CEO to prison are over the top and premature. I'd like to at least know what happened before handing out prison sentences.

Also, like Lawryn said, every one of us uses oil, and wants cheap gasoline. We can't have the oil we want, without some risk of environmental damage. Every time I drive my car, I am mindful that there are consequences to that action. So, over the last few years, I've made an effort to drive fewer miles -- like consolidating errands and planning ahead when shopping to cut cut a few trips to the store.

Anyway, I'll have to mark this day on my calendar -- Lawryn and I agreed today. :lol:

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Postby caseydog » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:50 am

Oasis Maker wrote:Yes, and I think as been clearly demonstrated with our economy, nothing happens in a vacuum. That goes for the environment as well. All considerations and "impacts" in the long run, are global in scale.

Scott


Yes, they are.

China is where the US was a half century ago. Their manufacturing economy is booming, and like ours way back then, their manufacturing economy is generating a lot of pollution.

I would really like to see us put more pressure on China to put better environmental and safety regulations, and worker protections on their their manufacturing companies. Besides being the right thing to do, it could help us compete on a somewhat more level playing field.

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Postby martha24 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:08 pm

Obviously BP didn't want an oil spill, whether they were negligent or not. There is time to figure that out, but right now the focus needs to be on stopping the oil flow and cleaning up the mess before talk of lawyers & suing etc.

To me the disaster of the oil spill in the gulf is a two pronged situation.

First, the leak needs to be stopped and it is BP's well & they are the experts. Again no doubt they want it stopped and are trying to do just that. Whether they could have done a better job or not, I wouldn't know.

Second, is the oil once it gets into the water. IMHO this is the area that Pres. Obama could have really pushed getting enough boats, equipment, help there from day 1 to do everything possible to keep the oil from getting to the coast. From what I have seen in many ways the federal government has been more of a hindrance than a help. I just seems that this end of the problem should have been dealt with better.

dakotamouse wrote: Last night I learned that 3 days after the wreck the Dutch offered a ship with an oil boom to help control the oil. They weren't the only country to offer help. The government refused this help. I want to know why. With all the aid we have given the world why was the help of others turned away?


dakotamouse I would also like to know.
Martha ;)

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Postby caseydog » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:24 pm

I think the biggest mistake Obama and the government made was to trust the information they were getting from BP after the well blew up.

We just learned in the last few days that BP had Hight Definition video of the leak from the very beginning, that they did not share with anyone. Government and academic scientists say they could have made better estimates of oil flow if they were working with HD video, instead of the really fuzzy video BP gave them.

So, to the President I say, in hindsight, you shouldn't have trusted BP to tell you the truth about what was happening.

But, I probably would have done the same thing.

People complain about government regulations, and then complain when a lack of regulations leads to a catastrophe. We Americans really do want to have it both ways.

Drill baby drill, but don't spill baby spill. :lol:

And, let's not forget that before Obama, the "federal government" was under the leadership of two oilmen. The VP was CEO of the company hired to cap the Deep Water Horizon. But, I'm sure that had nothing to do with lax oversight of the oil industry. :roll:

CD

Also, the Dutch Oil skimmer booms are currently being fitted to US ships to gather oil int the Gulf. They were originally turned down because, based on BP estimates and information, they should not have been needed. Again, it's hard to make good decisions when someone is keeping the truth from you.
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Postby Woodbutcher » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:35 pm

The reason the Dutch and 2 other countries were told no thanks was because we have a law ( the Jones Act I believe) that prohibits ships that are not built and maned in the US from operating in our waters. It can be waved by executive order as was done during Katrina. For some reason Obama decided against it. Too bad, may have made a big difference.
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Postby madjack » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:53 pm

I have avoided saying anything in this post but thought I would add a couple of thoughts...first of all to all the screaming NIMBYS(not in my back yard) out there...SHUT UP...this IS my backyard and has been raped and polluted since the beginning of the off shore oil industries birth...the marshes have been disappearing for decades down here due to dredging for pipelines bringing the oil in from offshore...those same dredged openings are how the oil is getting inland now...as has been said...we want oil...cheap oil and the environmental damage is what we pay for cheap gas. While I am willing to see it done in my backyard, I expect those that holler loudest(Ca NE FL) need to realize they have payed a lower price for gas and oil and should consider if they want even higher prices or oil wells off their coast...if they do not want oil wells off their coasts, they should havvta pay a premium for that privilege.

Right now, the biggest economic damage being done to this area is the moratorium on drilling that has been enacted...STUPID...this is a politics only decision and is killing an entire industry that make the fishing and tourism industries look like a single peanut...it is killing all the working people involved and should be lifted IMMEDIATELY since it has nothing to do with the leak...while I would not normally put a petition out there for signing, I would at least ask you too look at this one and consider signing........
http://www.crt.state.la.us/GEST/Petition.aspx
madjack 8)

p.s. Larwyn and CD have the best take on all of this amongst the many posts in this thread....MJ
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Postby Billy K » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:55 pm

I'd first have to agree with Larwyn (and CD); on letting those who actually know how, fix it ; and our job is to hope for sooner and less damage than it currently looks like....

After that - I'd say we need to think and act more LOCALLY.

Let the States have Constitutional Control over things better dealt with on smaller stages.

The alphabet lettered agencies are headquartered too far away from where the "rubber meets the road"!!
Their "one size fits all" methodology, IMO: is part of the problem.
ie: closing ALL of the rigs because one went bad.
or; not letting FL or LA build sand berms to stop the oil - before doing
an Environmental Study!
The government is wholly unsuited to fix problems that it has created. Either through "do this to get votes" or "we know better" attitudes. Or, the one that seems to show up all too frequently: -if, we do this it will hurt the other political party!

Yes, BP has to take it's share of the blame, as well as; the bill. The time for paying the piper will and should come; after the well is capped!

My heart goes out to those who are suffering from this catastrophe. My sister survived Katrina. A lot of her friends are in the oil fields and still living along the Gulf Coast. We are far away and yet; right next door.

We have come a long way since the Chief shed that tear.
We have a lot left to do.
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Postby robfisher » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:11 pm

Billy K wrote:We have come a long way since the Chief shed that tear.
We have a lot left to do.


Bravo Billy!

Just for the record that Chief was no chief. He was an second generation Italian-American actor and that tear was just Hollywood glycerine. But still it was a great ad.
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Postby Sparksalot » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:04 pm

Oasis Maker wrote:
Sparksalot wrote:
Also, if you are using multiple quotes in your post, it would be considerate to identify what's what and attribute each quote to the members name that wrote it. Your second "unnamed" quote did not come from me, but appears so.

Scott


both were unnamed as I did not want to leave the impression of a personal attack.
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Postby Sparksalot » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:06 pm

caseydog wrote:
Sparksalot wrote:Decades of government intervention and control motivated by however well meaning causes which have forced the wells farther off shore into ever deeper water.


That is just plain wrong.

Oil Companies drill where the oil is. Period.

CD


ANWR is on dry ground. The oil companies know oil is there too. Where's the drilling? Government interference once again.
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Postby caseydog » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:32 pm

Sparksalot wrote:
caseydog wrote:
Sparksalot wrote:Decades of government intervention and control motivated by however well meaning causes which have forced the wells farther off shore into ever deeper water.


That is just plain wrong.

Oil Companies drill where the oil is. Period.

CD


ANWR is on dry ground. The oil companies know oil is there too. Where's the drilling? Government interference once again.


Until oil prices went up a few years ago, the oil industry really didn't want to mess with ANWR, either. It was much cheaper to get oil from the Middle East and other OPEC controlled areas. The only people who cared about ANWR were right wing politicians trying to score points with right wing ideologues. It wasn't profitable, but made good talking points. Let me repeat this, the oil industry didn't give a hoot about ANWR because it wasn't profitable when oil was cheap. That's basic free market economics, not government interference. ANWR was the proverbial red herring.

I grew up in a home where The Oil and Gas Journal was the magazine laying around the house -- not Sports Illustrated. Living with the President and Chief Operating Officer of Valero Refining and Marketing Company meant learning a little about the oil business, whether I wanted to or not. Oil put me through college.

Both extremes -- the put the BP CEO in prison extreme, and the government caused this problem extreme -- are wrong. Period.

I get soooo frustrated with people who can't see past their idealogical beliefs and see the reality of a situation. The world is complicated, and there are unlimited shades of grey. Deal with it.

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Postby madjack » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:00 pm

caseydog wrote:
Sparksalot wrote:
caseydog wrote:
Sparksalot wrote:Decades of government intervention and control motivated by however well meaning causes which have forced the wells farther off shore into ever deeper water.


That is just plain wrong.

Oil Companies drill where the oil is. Period.

CD


ANWR is on dry ground. The oil companies know oil is there too. Where's the drilling? Government interference once again.


Until oil prices went up a few years ago, the oil industry really didn't want to mess with ANWR, either. It was much cheaper to get oil from the Middle East and other OPEC controlled areas. The only people who cared about ANWR were right wing politicians trying to score points with right wing ideologues. It wasn't profitable, but made good talking points. Let me repeat this, the oil industry didn't give a hoot about ANWR because it wasn't profitable when oil was cheap. That's basic free market economics, not government interference. ANWR was the proverbial red herring.

I grew up in a home where The Oil and Gas Journal was the magazine laying around the house -- not Sports Illustrated. Living with the President and Chief Operating Officer of Valero Refining and Marketing Company meant learning a little about the oil business, whether I wanted to or not. Oil put me through college.

Both extremes -- the put the BP CEO in prison extreme, and the government caused this problem extreme -- are wrong. Period.

I get soooo frustrated with people who can't see past their idealogical beliefs and see the reality of a situation. The world is complicated, and there are unlimited shades of grey. Deal with it.

CD


...a truer statement/post I don't think I have ever seen...double especially so, the last paragraph...3 cheers for it all :applause: :applause: :applause:
madjack 8)
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Postby martha24 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:05 am

madjack wrote:I have avoided saying anything in this post but thought I would add a couple of thoughts...first of all to all the screaming NIMBYS(not in my back yard) out there...SHUT UP...this IS my backyard and has been raped and polluted since the beginning of the off shore oil industries birth...the marshes have been disappearing for decades down here due to dredging for pipelines bringing the oil in from offshore...those same dredged openings are how the oil is getting inland now...as has been said...we want oil...cheap oil and the environmental damage is what we pay for cheap gas. While I am willing to see it done in my backyard, I expect those that holler loudest(Ca NE FL) need to realize they have payed a lower price for gas and oil and should consider if they want even higher prices or oil wells off their coast...if they do not want oil wells off their coasts, they should havvta pay a premium for that privilege.

Right now, the biggest economic damage being done to this area is the moratorium on drilling that has been enacted...STUPID...this is a politics only decision and is killing an entire industry that make the fishing and tourism industries look like a single peanut...it is killing all the working people involved and should be lifted IMMEDIATELY since it has nothing to do with the leak...while I would not normally put a petition out there for signing, I would at least ask you too look at this one and consider signing........
http://www.crt.state.la.us/GEST/Petition.aspx
madjack 8)

p.s. Larwyn and CD have the best take on all of this amongst the many posts in this thread....MJ


Well said madjack. :applause:
Glad you posted the petition. I signed it and was happy to do so.

For me I'm glad to hear from the "locals" who are dealing with this situation and who know much more than I.

I also know about the NIMBYs, there was an oil spill here some 30 years ago and if there is any mention of drilling around here people start flipping out. The crazy thing around here is that there is natural seepage of oil that is on going and equal to a small oil leak and drilling would actually help it. IMHO the oil companies should have to live up to high standards, but that doesn't mean no drilling.

To me the worst is the rest of the country putting their 2 cents in whether there should or shouldn't be drilling in the gulf, its not their jobs or economy.
Martha ;)

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Postby madjack » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:40 am

...one of my friends son is a driller(second only to the tool pusher on a rig) on the Discoverer Enterprise...it is a sister ship to the one which exploded and the lead ship in the armada trying to stop the outflow of oil...here is an interesting video of that ship in action... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQIJlxpdds ...interesting to watch as it gives info on how the ship does what it does......
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