LP Gas Refrigerator

[Gene S]

I bought a 3 way LP Gas Refrigerator Norcold 323 for the Teardrop I am building. Was this the wrong thing to do? I planed on putting a LP tank on the front of the trailer and running a 12 ft hose under the trailer and up through the floor to the Refrigerator. I was also going to put in a Tee so I could use a LP stove. Has anyone done this ?

[len19070]

Good morning Gene and welcome.

Mounting an LP Ref in a tear has been discussed here many times and the idea has been abandoned by many people.

In fact I don't know of anyone here or on any other Teardrop board, or in the real world who has a Teardrop Trailer with one in it...I could be wrong.

I'm an Master RV Technician with over 35 years experience and I have tried and abandoned the idea long ago.

Not that It cannot be done, just that there are to many dangers for me that I'm not willing to take a chance with nor give "How to" advice for.

First is the excessive heat that these Ref's put out on any of the 3 sources.

Then there's the open flame in the center of the cabin.
The risk of Carbon monoxide.

Venting, very important, If the Ref will have the door facing out in the galley there will have to be a vent at the top and that vent will be at or near the hinge. A great area for leaks.

With all the requirements that are needed for venting, space becomes an issue.

And always the risk of an LP leak.

Another factor to be concerned with is that the Norcold N323 has all the controls in the back of the Ref, as do many of the small 3 ways. Which means that an access panel must be made directly into the cabin to turn the unit on or off.

Besides being inconvenient (you may have to remove the mattress to gain access) these controls are directly in the area of the heat and Carbon Monoxide.

If that access panel...that is in an inconvenient place is not re secured properly you have direct access from the unit to the cabin.

As it is you would have an open flame within a few inches of your mattress & you.

I would mount the Ref in the galley but make it so it can be pulled when you get to the campground and ran outside the trailer.

Your going to get several suggestions on "how to do this" from people who have never done it before.

I have never done it either, but have tried. Excessive Heat, Carbon Monoxide in the center of the Cabin and there effects were the show stoppers for me. Not the instalation.

Happy Trails

Len

[Shadow Catcher]

RVIA standards for plumbing gas line is black iron pipe back. (I would use galvanized).

[madjack]

RVIA standards for plumbing gas line is black iron pipe back. (I would use galvanized).

...the reason gas codes call for black iron pipe is galvanized piping can flake galvanizing off and stop up the jets on your gas appliances.....
madjack

[len19070]

RVIA standards for plumbing gas line is black iron pipe back. (I would use galvanized).

...the reason gas codes call for black iron pipe is galvanized piping can flake galvanizing off and stop up the jets on your gas appliances.....
madjack

Very good point Jack.

There is a reason for everything.

Even worse than a stopped up jet is a "Half stopped up Jet" that makes the appliance burn incorrectly...Carbon Monoxide again.

Happy Trails

Len

[vtx1029]

Some Braided Teflon Hose may be the best choice.

[eamarquardt]

Very good point Jack.

There is a reason for everything.

Even worse than a stopped up jet is a "Half stopped up Jet" that makes the appliance burn incorrectly...Carbon Monoxide again.

Happy Trails

Len

In a recent post someone negitively refered to the comment: "we've always done it that way". There is usually a "darn good reason" that it's always done that way and one needs to understand the reason(s) before not doing it "that way". Otherwise, one just might get a "Darwin Award". I sometimes think: "They can't be as dumb as they appear, I just don't have the "big picture"". Sometimes I don't have the "big picture", sometimes they are as dumb as they appear, but before deciding, one really needs to get (via research) the "big picture".

Cheers,

Gus

[SouthSoundJeff]

As Shadow Catcher said, black iron pipe is the material to use.
As has been previously mentioned, heat would be an issue any time a flame is involved, but you already knew that, didn't you??????
I am starting my first build - not really a teardrop. I've been lurking here for a while - gleaning ideas. I suppose I am technically building a chuckwagon, on a HF chassis. My wife and I will be sleeping in a tent again, since the motor-home blew the engine. .....
However, I am stripping out all the useful appliances, etc from the thing before I call the scrap metal people to haul off the carcass.
One of the things I definitely AM going to use is the LP fridge. Also the LP range and HW heater.
To understand Propane better, you can look at the chemical composition, and how it changes when burned. Having spent more than a couple years installing and mostly servicing propane appliances and vehicles retrofitted to use LP, I can assure you that propane produces NO carbon monoxide. that's exactly why it is used exclusively in the cargo holds of ships, etc.
When propane burns, the by-products it produces are carbon DIOXIDE (same stuff you breathe out), and water vapor. Of course you need to vent out the heat, and supply fresh air for combustion, just like any fire.
The big danger in the use of propane, besides the heat issue, is that the raw gas DISPLACES oxygen, and is heavier than air. Any leak in any passenger compartment, especially where you sleep, is dangerous because the gas will fill the area and suffocate you when it displaces the air in the lungs, unless of course it finds an ignition source. Both outcomes would be tragic.
If you insist on installing LP devices in your teardrop, at the very least install them in the galley area, separated and sealed off from the sleeping quarters, and use black iron pipe - pressure-testing the system to be 100% sure there are no leaks.
Another reason to use pipe instead of hose is that pipe is more durable - very hard to nick or cut, and you won't accidentally drive a nail or screw into it.
Having said all that - I will reiterate - I am DEFINITELY going to have those conveniences in MY trailer, and if you decide it is worth the hassle of taking the proper precautions - then have fun!
-Jeff-

[campinwi]

So, if propane does not produce carbon monoxide, why did my pop up camper that has a three way fridge, propane stove and furnace come with a carbon monoxide detector?

[eamarquardt]

Good morning Gene and welcome.

Mounting an LP Ref in a tear has been discussed here many times and the idea has been abandoned by many people. Not abandoned by me.

In fact I don't know of anyone here or on any other Teardrop board, or in the real world who has a Teardrop Trailer with one in it...I could be wrong. There is always a first.

I'm an Master RV Technician with over 35 years experience and I have tried and abandoned the idea long ago. No comment.

Not that It cannot be done, just that there are to many dangers for me that I'm not willing to take a chance with nor give "How to" advice for. OK with me.

First is the excessive heat that these Ref's put out on any of the 3 sources. 150 watts is not "excessive" and has been sucessfully dealt with or the units would not be in service.

Then there's the open flame in the center of the cabin. I imagine a typical teardrop installation (in a rear facing galley) there will be a solid bulkhead between the reefer and cabin. Not the case in a typical RV where these units are installed safely all the time. Not an issue. My installation will have two solid bulkheads between the reefer and cabin.

The risk of Carbon monoxide. Incomplete combustion can generate CO. So you're gonna have to starve the unit of combustion air (not an issue on a/c or d/c operation), vent the gas directly into the cabin (which is not gonna happen in a teardrop with the unit installed in the galley with a solid bulkhead between the reefer and cabin), and have the gas reach a lethal level. Simply put, not gonna happen.

Venting, very important, If the Ref will have the door facing out in the galley there will have to be a vent at the top and that vent will be at or near the hinge. A great area for leaks. I used to sail in 50 knot winds with green water over the bow. Never had a drop of water get in the dorade vent. Easily dealt with.

With all the requirements that are needed for venting, space becomes an issue. I don't think so. In fact, the less excess space around the cooliing mechanism the better the draft (natural convection cooling) will be and the better the unit will perfrom

And always the risk of an LP leak. So we should give up propane for water heating, space heating, and cooking? Not a valid argument.

Another factor to be concerned with is that the Norcold N323 has all the controls in the back of the Ref, as do many of the small 3 ways. Which means that an access panel must be made directly into the cabin to turn the unit on or off. True but it can be dealt with.

Besides being inconvenient (you may have to remove the mattress to gain access) these controls are directly in the area of the heat and Carbon Monoxide. The unit mentioned above does have the controls in the rear but this issue can be addressed. Most units have the controls right above the door so access is just as easy as getting to the inside of the reefer.

If that access panel...that is in an inconvenient place is not re secured properly you have direct access from the unit to the cabin. Only an issue with the unit mentioned above and for that unit it can be addressed with an airtight door.

As it is you would have an open flame within a few inches of your mattress & you. No more so than a space heater or water heater. The flame/heat source is well surrounded and I "googled" around and could find no incidents to indicate there is a safety issue with these units. If they were that hazardous, given our lawsuit happy society, they wouldn't be on the market.

I would mount the Ref in the galley but make it so it can be pulled when you get to the campground and ran outside the trailer. They don't do this with other installations. Why is a teardrop different?

Your going to get several suggestions on "how to do this" from people who have never done it before. The Wright brother never flew before, before we put a man in space it had never been done before, and I've successfully done a lot of things I've never done before. There is always a first and that doesn't mean it can't be thought out, planned, and safely executed if you get the right input.

I have never done it either, but have tried. Excessive Heat, Carbon Monoxide in the center of the Cabin and there effects were the show stoppers for me. Not the instalation. We disagree on the issues of heat and CO.

Happy Trails

Len

It can be done effectively and safely. Stay tuned.

Re: how to plumb it. There are always advances being made in materials. What was true yesterday is not always true today. Propane used to be considered too unsafe for use in boats (where it can settle in the bilge and cause a big explosion). It is now very common to use propane for cooking aboard boats. The current standard for plumbing boats is flexible line. If these lines work fine in boats where it is more critical and subject to a very harsh environment (constant exposure to high humidity and salt water), I see no reason thay can't be used for a trailer.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/18.htm

http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/lpg_hose_fitting.htm

http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/propane_d ... html#Hoses

Cheers,

Gus

[chorizon]

I'm corn-fused....

I was under the impression that the incomplete combustion of any hydrocarbon results in the production of CO as well as H2O...

When not enough oxygen is present for complete combustion, incomplete combustion occurs when propane burns and forms water, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and carbon.

2 C3H8 + 7 O2 → 2 CO2 + 2 CO + 2 C + 8 H2O + heat
Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + Carbon Monoxide + Carbon + Water

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

[eamarquardt]

I'm corn-fused....

I was under the impression that the incomplete combustion of any hydrocarbon results in the production of CO as well as H2O...

When not enough oxygen is present for complete combustion, incomplete combustion occurs when propane burns and forms water, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and carbon.

2 C3H8 + 7 O2 → 2 CO2 + 2 CO + 2 C + 8 H2O + heat
Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + Carbon Monoxide + Carbon + Water

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

I said in my post above: The risk of Carbon monoxide. Incomplete combustion can generate CO. So you're gonna have to starve the unit of combustion air (not an issue on a/c or d/c operation), vent the gas directly into the cabin (which is not gonna happen in a teardrop with the unit installed in the galley with a solid bulkhead between the reefer and cabin), and have the gas reach a lethal level. Simply put, not gonna happen.

Yer right you can get CO from burning hydrocarbons but if the installation is right you won't get any. CO is dangerous because it is clear, oderless, and your blood is better at absorbing CO than O2. So when you breathe a high enough concentration of CO your blood latches on to the CO rather than the O2 and you die as you aren't getting enough oxygen into your blood/body/brain. It's difficult to get poisoned by CO2 because your body is programmed to recognize high levels of CO2 and you will feel as though you aren't getting enough air. Breathing is triggered, not by a lack of oxygen in your blood, but by a build of of CO2. Your body doesn't recognize it when you run out of oxygen other than shutting down (as in die). Oxygen deprivation is very sneaky and many pilots have died when they weren't wearing their oxygen mask but should have been. Your lights just dim, you pass out, and you never know what hit you until you wake up in heaven (or the other place).

Cheers,

Gus

[prohandyman]

Gene
I think the subject has gone askew here. It is not the plumbing of the gas piping that is the problem - it is the ventilation system needed to properly install a Refridge of this type. They have to have (so I am told, and as I understand ) a continuous air channel from top to bottom along the back of the fridge, running from the top of the camper to underneath, to allow for new air to come in and combusted air to escape. And.....here is the kicker, they have to back up to an outside wall!!!! How do I know this...I have a friend in the RV refrigeration business. He has stated that this condition CANNOT be changed. Hard to mount a fridge on an outside wall in a teardrop and still access it from the hatch. IMHO

[Rigsby]

I dont see any problems having the 3 way fridge in your build

Here is a link to Jackdaws build, he has used one and has a no problems. If you go back a page on his build you will see the vent and the way he copes with the rising heat
http://tnttt.com/viewto ... c&start=30

[len19070]

Good morning Gene and welcome.

Mounting an LP Ref in a tear has been discussed here many times and the idea has been abandoned by many people. Not abandoned by me.

In fact I don't know of anyone here or on any other Teardrop board, or in the real world who has a Teardrop Trailer with one in it...I could be wrong. There is always a first.

I'm an Master RV Technician with over 35 years experience and I have tried and abandoned the idea long ago. No comment.

Not that It cannot be done, just that there are to many dangers for me that I'm not willing to take a chance with nor give "How to" advice for. OK with me.

First is the excessive heat that these Ref's put out on any of the 3 sources. 150 watts is not "excessive" and has been sucessfully dealt with or the units would not be in service.

Then there's the open flame in the center of the cabin. I imagine a typical teardrop installation (in a rear facing galley) there will be a solid bulkhead between the reefer and cabin. Not the case in a typical RV where these units are installed safely all the time. Not an issue. My installation will have two solid bulkheads between the reefer and cabin.

The risk of Carbon monoxide. Incomplete combustion can generate CO. So you're gonna have to starve the unit of combustion air (not an issue on a/c or d/c operation), vent the gas directly into the cabin (which is not gonna happen in a teardrop with the unit installed in the galley with a solid bulkhead between the reefer and cabin), and have the gas reach a lethal level. Simply put, not gonna happen.

Venting, very important, If the Ref will have the door facing out in the galley there will have to be a vent at the top and that vent will be at or near the hinge. A great area for leaks. I used to sail in 50 knot winds with green water over the bow. Never had a drop of water get in the dorade vent. Easily dealt with.

With all the requirements that are needed for venting, space becomes an issue. I don't think so. In fact, the less excess space around the cooliing mechanism the better the draft (natural convection cooling) will be and the better the unit will perfrom

And always the risk of an LP leak. So we should give up propane for water heating, space heating, and cooking? Not a valid argument.

Another factor to be concerned with is that the Norcold N323 has all the controls in the back of the Ref, as do many of the small 3 ways. Which means that an access panel must be made directly into the cabin to turn the unit on or off. True but it can be dealt with.

Besides being inconvenient (you may have to remove the mattress to gain access) these controls are directly in the area of the heat and Carbon Monoxide. The unit mentioned above does have the controls in the rear but this issue can be addressed. Most units have the controls right above the door so access is just as easy as getting to the inside of the reefer.

If that access panel...that is in an inconvenient place is not re secured properly you have direct access from the unit to the cabin. Only an issue with the unit mentioned above and for that unit it can be addressed with an airtight door.

As it is you would have an open flame within a few inches of your mattress & you. No more so than a space heater or water heater. The flame/heat source is well surrounded and I "googled" around and could find no incidents to indicate there is a safety issue with these units. If they were that hazardous, given our lawsuit happy society, they wouldn't be on the market.

I would mount the Ref in the galley but make it so it can be pulled when you get to the campground and ran outside the trailer. They don't do this with other installations. Why is a teardrop different?

Your going to get several suggestions on "how to do this" from people who have never done it before. The Wright brother never flew before, before we put a man in space it had never been done before, and I've successfully done a lot of things I've never done before. There is always a first and that doesn't mean it can't be thought out, planned, and safely executed if you get the right input.

I have never done it either, but have tried. Excessive Heat, Carbon Monoxide in the center of the Cabin and there effects were the show stoppers for me. Not the instalation. We disagree on the issues of heat and CO.

Happy Trails

Len

It can be done effectively and safely. Stay tuned.

Re: how to plumb it. There are always advances being made in materials. What was true yesterday is not always true today. Propane used to be considered too unsafe for use in boats (where it can settle in the bilge and cause a big explosion). It is now very common to use propane for cooking aboard boats. The current standard for plumbing boats is flexible line. If these lines work fine in boats where it is more critical and subject to a very harsh environment (constant exposure to high humidity and salt water), I see no reason thay can't be used for a trailer.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/18.htm

http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/lpg_hose_fitting.htm

http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/propane_d ... html#Hoses

Cheers,

Gus

Good By.