Safe table saw

[Corwin C]

I have to agree with Danny and Larwyn on this one. The idea of trying to make the world out of "Nerf" so that no one can get hurt is ridiculous, mandating it is insane. Any safety device is override-able and has the potential to fail. It adds cost and complexity and takes away respect for potentially hazardous situations. The good safety devices are simple and obvious (safety glasses, hearing protection, belt guards, push sticks, feather boards, double insulated housings, grounded plugs, switch/panel lockouts, etc.) The more complex they are the more prone they are to cause problems themselves (ground fault interrupters, anti-lock brakes, oh jeez ... do we wanna go there?)

People need to take responsibility for themselves. If you want one, by all means go out and buy one. It ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT TAKE AWAY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO STAY SAFE. If you get hurt, don't blame the manufacturer, or the inventor, or the technician who installed it. Had you not been relying on it to protect you, more than likely you would have given that blade the attention that it deserves. Obviously Mr. Gass isn't giving that blade the respect it deserves. Accidents do happen, all too often they are preceded by negligence.

There is a safe way to do almost anything related to our trailers and their construction. Finding that way is up to YOU.

[sagebrush]

I'll have to go with Danny, Larwyn and Corwin on this one.The more safety devices that are added ,the more complacent (sp?) people become. Almost 40 years ago OSHA was created to end ALL workplace injuries. Sorry to have to say it,but, there are still injuries out there. The best safety device is BETWEEN YOUR EARS. PLEASE USE IT!!!!!!

[prohandyman]

I take full responsibilty for my accident. For all you newer members check out my album...first picture...But be forwarned..IT IS GRAPHIC! I have used a table saw for forty years and I got in a hurry one too many times and I got bit. I agree with all the comments about the user taking precautions 100% of the time. This accident was in January of '07...still have thumb, but little feeling

[satch]

I have a late 40's Atlas with a Biesemeyer fence modified to fit it. It has no gaurds or kick back paws ( I never had them). Like most of the pros, safety is mainly the operator. ALL power equipment should be checked before operation and properly maintained. Once you lose respect for the machine, that's when you lose fingers.

BTW, nice boo-boo Dan, like you I took a chunk off a finger years ago, not as bad as yours, but it was 'cause I was "stupid" and not the saws fault

[aggie79]

A Sawstop may help to keep fingers from getting cut, but it does nothing for the other type of tablesaw accident - boards kicking back toward the operator.

I have a "Crapsman" hybrid saw with a Biesmeyer fence. Even though it doesn't go "out of tune" I check the blade, miter slot and fence alignment every six months or so. The stock blade guard is crap so it went into the trash and was replaced by a Sharkguard blade splitter. I keep my blades clean and sharp and at the right height for cutting. I use a cross-cut sled for 90 degree panel cuts. And, as Danny said, proper stance - to the side - is also crucial to not get hurt when kickback occurs.

My 2 cents worth.

[halfdome, Danny]

A Sawstop may help to keep fingers from getting cut, but it does nothing for the other type of tablesaw accident - boards kicking back toward the operator.

I have a "Crapsman" hybrid saw with a Biesmeyer fence. Even though it doesn't go "out of tune" I check the blade, miter slot and fence alignment every six months or so. The stock blade guard is crap so it went into the trash and was replaced by a Sharkguard blade splitter. I keep my blades clean and sharp and at the right height for cutting. I use a cross-cut sled for 90 degree panel cuts. And, as Danny said, proper stance - to the side - is also crucial to not get hurt when kickback occurs.

My 2 cents worth.

Funny that's what I call Sears tools too .

In the mid 1970's a co-worker once had a 3/8" x 3/8" x 60" sliver of hardwood shoot out from the saw and went deep into his right side. The doctor said his "FAT" saved his life. Scraps between the fence and blade are very dangerous. This guy would do notches and such and would throw them on the floor & have to climb over then to use the saw. A times it would be a foot high. Very unsafe & he was the lead man. I finally had to say something. Danny

[Larwyn]

According to Fine Woodworking Magazine the optimal speed for a 10 inch tablesaw blade is 10000 feet per minute.

Sawstop claims they can stop that blade in 5 milliseconds.

That is one full revolution of the blade.

If the average blade speed is reduced to 25% during the stop your hand is only exposed to about a dozen of the saw blades cutting edges.

I say, if you are really confident that Sawstop will protect you from injury, go out to the shop, raise that table saw blade to the normal height to cut a 3/4" stock, leave the saw off (unplug it if you wish), now stand as you normally would to feed stock into the blade and slide your hand at the normal feed rate head on into the blade. Compare your new bleeding injury to what Sawstop shows in thier videos and pictures. Something is wrong here, isn't it?

Before you even bring it up, check the video in the opening post. Gass slowly rolls his finger (verrrry slowly) into the side of the blade (behind the actual cutting edge).

As for the wet hot dogs, I would like to see that test done with a frozen hot dog or even one with artificial bones of some sort to stiffen it up and prevent it from being so easily pushed away by what is very likely a dull saw blade.

I am not even doubting the ability of Sawstop to reduce the severity of a table saw accident. I do doubt that it can protect the operator to the extent that they advertise it to.

There is lots of hype involved with Sawstop, and it is mostly of the male bovine excrement variety.

[Yota Bill]

I cant understand why anyone would knock the potential of a safety device. Even the safest of people make mistakes, regardless of the reason, it can happen to anyone.
So a person that uses thier head and follows safe practices wont have the system set off and have to spend money replacing the pieces, Congrats. But that one time your wife opens the door and the dog runs in and hits you in the back of the leg, or your mind wanders from what your doing for whatever reason, or you say to yourself "its just a small, quick cut, I'll just free hand it", you may find yourself wishing you had this device, or something similar. The replacement parts cost much less then your fingers.

No safety device is meant to overrule the operators training or common sense. Its a backup, because people make mistakes. Everyone does, even if you dont want to admit it.
Thinking that safety devices make people complacent is ridiculous, if you ask me. A careless person is going to be careless, wether the device is there to protect them or not. A smart person knows not to "test" the safeties.

[rbeemer]

while Saw-stop shows good potential, I would not have one because I think there is a better way. Keeping your awareness that a saw is a dangerous device is the best safety device there is: YOU USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!.

What SAW STOP does that is good is to drop the sawblade down from the cutting surface. There is no reason to stop the blade using aluminum blocks rammed into the teeth of the blade, if the saw blade is out of the way. Remember also you cannot cut green or wet wood with this saw because it will invoke the safety device. I have not seen this saw run in a area with high humidity either.

The idea of saw-stop is good and bad because it give people a false sense of security that nothing bad will happen to them if they make a mistake and that is not good.

[Yota Bill]

while Saw-stop shows good potential, I would not have one because I think there is a better way. Keeping your awareness that a saw is a dangerous device is the best safety device there is: YOU USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!.

What SAW STOP does that is good is to drop the sawblade down from the cutting surface. There is no reason to stop the blade using aluminum blocks rammed into the teeth of the blade, if the saw blade is out of the way. Remember also you cannot cut green or wet wood with this saw because it will invoke the safety device. I have not seen this saw run in a area with high humidity either.

The idea of saw-stop is good and bad because it give people a false sense of security that nothing bad will happen to them if they make a mistake and that is not good.

hmmm...by this logic, people should stop wearing seatbelts...not having the safety device will make them better, more alert drivers.

[eamarquardt]

My biggest question is where do we draw the line with "government" stripping us of our ability to make a decision for ourselves. Manditory helment laws? Assisted suicide? When is too much intervention too much. The following examples aren't that far fetched.

Cheers,

Gus

[Yota Bill]

those examples are extremely far-fetched...and who said this device should be government mandated? I realize the owner of the patent wanted that, but it doesnt work that way (he would have to release the patent if it were required to be installed by the manufacturer)

take it from someone who is surounded by multiple safety devices on most every job, the device is suplimental and does not make the user complacent

[eamarquardt]

those examples are extremely far-fetched..ah, come on now, where is your sense of humor ,,.and who said this device should be government mandated? It has been suggested that the owner of the technology has supported the government/courts doing so. I realize the owner of the patent wanted that, but it doesnt work that way (he would have to release the patent if it were required to be installed by the manufacturer)

I don't think that if the government somehow mandated that saw stop technology be required on all new table saws the fellow would be required to relinquish his patent rights. I'd be interested if there is a requirement that he be forced to abdicate his rights.

take it from someone who is surounded by multiple safety devices on most every job, the device is suplimental and does not make the user complacent

The more "mindless" you make the task, the more complacent the worker becomes. Having spent a bit of time with machines that will kill you in the blink of an eye I can say that workers will DELIBERATELY circumvent safety devices when they so choose. A mod was installed on a machine in the plant I worked in that required both hands to press separate buttons to start the machine (so that the hands were out of harm's way). It took exactly ONE SHIFT for someone to find a flaw in the computer's logic and bypass the safety feature. They should have been terminated but "political correctness" prevented managment from acting responsibly.

I advocate letting us retain some control over what we purchase and that we be personally accountable for our behavior and not legislating everything to death. However, sometimes innocent bystanders do need protection from others behavior.

Saw Stop is cool technology, but it isn't perfect, can be easily bypassed, and should not be mandatory on all new saws (IMHO).

This seems like a good summary of Saw Stop and the owner's behavior:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/di ... -gass.html

Cheers,

Gus

[doug hodder]

This type discussion runs rampant on woodworking sites as well. You either have or do not have good/safe shop work habits. If you think you need it...get it. Others may disagree, but I believe that if you are afraid of a tool and don't understand it's proper (safe) use and what it can do, either educate yourself or don't mess with it.

Many of us got the opportunity to learn how to use large stationary power tools back in high school. The great old shop safety films...no longer used as I'm sure they are too graphic for today's youngsters....kept us on our toes. Unfortunately, many of those wood shop programs are gone. It seems that recycling/environmental education is much more important now. Sorry, I just finished up a soap box in the garage...with my non-safe table saw and wanted to try it out. Doug

[Larwyn]

"Saves" as presented by Sawstop's website;
http://www.sawstop.com/finger-saves/
Many table saw accidents result in injuries in line with what is shown on Sawstop's website, even when the saw in use was not using Sawstop technology.

My biggest problem with Sawstop has been the exaggeration of the effectiveness and the ridiculously high price of the system.

Sawstop user's own presentation of a save;
http://woodtalkonline.com/topic/1750-sawstop-saved-the-idiots-fingers/