120 v grounding

Anything electric, AC or DC

120 v grounding

Postby wil.hansen » Fri May 13, 2011 1:25 am

I've read a lot about this topic, but haven't been able to find an answer to my specific question/situation.

I'm running a 12v system and a 120v system (separate right now).

I'll be skinning in aluminum and I know that I should ground my 120v system to my chassis. I have a breaker box with 2 15A breakers which will both be grounded to a strip in the box. Each of the outlets (three in total) have a 'ground screw' attatched to them, so i'll run the ground from my 12-2 wire to that screw.

1. At each outlet, should i ground to the wood frame? or to nothing?

2. From what point should I ground the system to the chassis? from the breaker box?

3. What other precautions should i take to keep my trailer from 'heating up' (electrically)?

Thanks.
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Postby Shadow Catcher » Fri May 13, 2011 5:05 am

120V AC should not be grounded to the frame, and realistically all grounds AC and DC should be wire.
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Postby OuttaHand » Fri May 13, 2011 6:44 am

I would never use the chassis (frame) for ANY kind of ground. It's a cheap and careless shortcut.

Always run separate groumd wires. When you have a dual voltage system (12v DC and 115v AC) you will use a separate ground for each.
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Postby Corwin C » Fri May 13, 2011 10:16 am

This is such a controversial subject and I think that part of the issue is terminology. For example, the term "ground" is used several ways when speaking of things electric.

When working with DC there are two wires, a positive(+) and a negative(-) which is commonly referred to as ground. Many choose to use metallic components of the trailer to provide a path for the negative flow instead of the second wire. I choose to run the wire so I'm not relying upon non-electrical components to provide an electrical path. If a problem occurs the power available is generally too low to cause physical harm to humans or animals. DC is generally self-contained and there is no reason for the energy to leave the trailer (it's usually trying to get back to the battery which normally is on the trailer.) It can cause fires or other damage, however, so absolutely always make sure you have a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere in the loop (preferably close to the positive source.)

When working with AC there are three wires, a hot (actually alternates +/-), a neutral (return path for the current), and a ground (usually bare wire in household applications). The ground is there ONLY for safety. In normal use, there is no current in the ground wire. If there is a problem, however, the wiring should be designed so that the ground will provide a solid, reliable return path instead of a human or animal. With AC I do electrically bond the trailer to the ground so that if a metallic component becomes hot there is a return path for that energy to go (and hopefully trip a GFCI so I know there's a problem.) Our trailers are essentially electrically isolated from the Earth by tires & etc. It would be potentially tragic to have someone touch the trailer somewhere and end up becoming that return path. Since neutral and ground are both return paths for electrical energy, at some point they are bonded together in a main electrical box or somewhere similar. Do not do this in the trailer if your GFCI is in the cord which supplies power to your trailer. You could be defeating the GFCI by bonding them together. I check for correct wiring at the source and the neutral and ground are completely separate within the trailer. Also, since the AC ground shouldn't be carrying current, it should not affect DC even if your DC wiring relies on the chassis for the return path.

A couple more things ... colors mean nothing. Different countries, manufacturers, builders, etc. will use any color for any wire. Don't fall into the trap that the green is always ground or that the red is always hot. The only way of knowing is to check. I have run into wiring where ALL the wires were black. Buy a simple inexpensive multimeter and learn how to use it. A multimeter is a most useful tool for checking and troubleshooting if you know how to use it.

Now to your questions ...

1. (Assuming AC) Grounding to the wood frame will accomplish nothing. Wood is generally an insulator and will not carry much current. If you are using a metal box, ground the box. Always ground to metal, the main path being your AC ground wire. Ground the aluminum siding, trailer frame, etc. and electrically bond them together as well if there is the possibility of them becoming energized.

2. Ground the chassis as near as possible to the AC source. The breaker box is usually a good place. You are trying to provide the shortest, easiest return path possible to avoid a shock. Multiple connections are a good thing if a metallic component could become energized and is isolated from the chassis. (i.e. separate electrical bonding for anything metallic - trailer skin, copper plumbing, metal sinks, door and window frames, etc.) In many cases all of this is overkill, try to visualize how something could become energized (shutting a door on a power cord?! driving a screw into your wiring?! chafing of insulation on a sharp edge?!) Remember, the ground should never have current other than when something fails.

3. Asking questions and becoming educated is the best thing that you can do. This is a controversial subject on this forum, so take any (and all) advice with a grain of salt. There are some suggestions out there that are absolutely incorrect and even dangerous. Not intentional ... but there is bad information out there. Electrical wiring is not difficult, but it does require some thought and understanding. Do not cut corners or make due. Use proper materials and techniques. Have a GFCI at or near the source of your AC power, and check for correct wiring at the source before you plug in (there are inexpensive testers to do this easily and inexpensively.)
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Perfect Answer

Postby Engineer Guy » Sat May 14, 2011 3:36 pm

+1. What Corwin said twice. A brilliant answer IMO.

My very slight Addendum would be re: bonding/connecting Neutral [carries return current from an Electrical load] and Ground [carries no current except during a short]. Those wires should connect together only once at the 120 VAC Breaker Box external to the Trailer Chassis. This is Code for House wiring with sound logic behind that practice.

In the case of a Trailer, this bonding should occur inside the Power Pedestal the Trailer is plugged into. While this topic is batted around on Forums - especially in the Big Rig World - do not tie 120 VAC Neutral and Ground together in/at your Trailer.

GFIC Outlets compare current going to Loads against current returned on the Neutral wire from those Loads. To ensure reliable GFIC operation, current should be carried on only the Neutral Wire.

As adjunct to this thought is from the State Code Inspector who signed off my Electrical work. While it was permissable [a few years ago], he was not keen on connecting 2 GFICs in series. He had seen false tripping of them. Keep this in mind when there's a GFIC [or more] in your Trailer, and also one in the 120 VAC Power Pedestal you're plugged into.

There are 20 Amp GFICs. You have to look for them, and be willing to pay a bit more. They have a horizontal 'slot' on the left-side Outlet Neutral slot, as well as the usual vertical slot there.

One way to think of this is to picture a Trailer as a large, plug-in Appliance 'Load', all relative to the RV/Campground Power Pedestal.

Questions and debates arise over the notorious mis-wiring possible in RV Park/Campground Power Pedestals. Those errors can exist, or corrosion can occur over time, etc.. Carry a little Outlet Tester and/or Voltmeter to confirm Power Pedestal AC wiring integrity and voltage levels.

For +12 VDC operation the Trailer is a power 'Island' unto itself. The Trailer Chassis being connected to Earth Ground back through the 120 VAC Cable is icing on the Cake, safety-wise.
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Re: Perfect Answer

Postby Optimistic Paranoid » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:39 pm

Engineer Guy wrote:+1. What Corwin said twice. A brilliant answer IMO.

My very slight Addendum would be re: bonding/connecting Neutral [carries return current from an Electrical load] and Ground [carries no current except during a short]. Those wires should connect together only once at the 120 VAC Breaker Box external to the Trailer Chassis. This is Code for House wiring with sound logic behind that practice.

In the case of a Trailer, this bonding should occur inside the Power Pedestal the Trailer is plugged into. While this topic is batted around on Forums - especially in the Big Rig World - do not tie 120 VAC Neutral and Ground together in/at your Trailer.
...

One way to think of this is to picture a Trailer as a large, plug-in Appliance 'Load', all relative to the RV/Campground Power Pedestal.



An excellent response. However . . .

You're not always plugged in to shore power.

I understand that in the "big rigs", with built in generators and fancy automatic transfer switches, the neutral and ground are tied together at the generator.

It's not at all clear to me whether the Honda and Yamaha (or, God Help Us, the cheap, made in China, Harbor Freight type) generators do that or not. If not, now you are pumping 120V AC into you trailer with NO connection between the neutral and ground.

Your thoughts on this, please?

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John
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Postby Optimistic Paranoid » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:32 pm

Here's a follow up grounding question having to do with inverters.

(And I sincerely hope this isn't in the "There may not be any stupid questions, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots out there!" category.)

The installation instructions for Xantrex Inverters specify that there are two large, heavy lugs for the positive and negative 12 V DC, and a SEPARATE screw for grounding the unit. Presumably, this is hooked to the chassis. If they wanted to ground through the negative 12V, they could do that internally, without a separate screw

Now the 120V AC side has two three-wire outlets, and I'm guessing that the grounding screw is there so that if there is a problem with something plugged in to the 120V side, so that current flows through the grounding wire back into the Inverter, the grounding screw and wire gives it a path to follow.

But - and this is the part that consfuses me - if you are in a trailer thats sitting on rubber tires, and you're NOT hooked up to shore power, you're not actually connected to the earth via a grounding rod, so where the hell does the power go in that case? It seems to me that if you hook the grounding screw up to your chassis, all you are accomplishing is energizing your chassis. But that can't be right.

I'm sure there is a simple answer here, but I'm certainly missing it.

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Re: Perfect Answer

Postby Corwin C » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:53 pm

Optimistic Paranoid wrote:<snip>
You're not always plugged in to shore power.

I understand that in the "big rigs", with built in generators and fancy automatic transfer switches, the neutral and ground are tied together at the generator.

It's not at all clear to me whether the Honda and Yamaha (or, God Help Us, the cheap, made in China, Harbor Freight type) generators do that or not. If not, now you are pumping 120V AC into you trailer with NO connection between the neutral and ground.

Your thoughts on this, please?

Regards
John


You are correct. However, every generator and inverter that I know of has a method of establishing this ground/earth connection. For example on page 14 of this Honda Generator Owners Manual. Notice that they skirt the question ... the reality is that every installation is going to be a little different based upon how the generator/inverter is wired internally and its location in or around your trailer. In some instances, you would simply bond the chassis to the earth/ground connection, in other cases, a metal stake (or similar construct) would be required to be driven into the earth and bond to it. If the correct solution is not spelled out specifically in the manual, to have it properly done you really should consult a professional who knows what issues to look for and address. I know that this isn't the answer that you want, but anyone giving advice how to do it without looking at YOUR installation may miss a potential issue and give incorrect advice.
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Well Grounded

Postby Engineer Guy » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:21 am

I think there's safe answers possible, assuming you're interesting in using a stand-alone Genny. Therefore, I'm ignoring 'Big Rig' protocol; it's irrelevant here.

The Honda Schematic helpfully linked above shows what my Kipor 3000 Genny from China does: AC Neutral is not connected to Earth Ground internally. Both Gennies ground the Frame at the Ground Lug provided. A connection from that Lug provides 3rd [Green] Wire AC Ground while also safety-grounding the Genny.

A helpful model is the Grid. Neutral is connected to Earth Ground at about every Pole. This ensures, say, 7,200 Volt Distribution is relative to Earth. In House Wiring, Neutral is bonded to Earth Ground once and once only at the Breaker Box using a special 'stub' shipped with the Breaker Box, but connected on site by the Electrician or Homeowner [me].

As at Hoover Dam, Neutral is not at Earth Ground until one connects it to there. This is true for the output of step-up and step-down Transformers, including those supplying a House. The same is true at a RV Park Power Pedestal. In all cases, in my opinion, Neutral and Earth Ground should exit the Trailer unconnected.

To answer the question of 'where do the current go' in a potential shock scenario, I would ground the Genny to a short buried rod or piece of conduit if that's of concern to you. Personally, I would tie the Xantrex Ground Lug to Trailer Frame, I would come off that SINGLE point Ground with Shore Power Cable Ground. I would also tie the Earth Ground of any Shore Power AC Receptacles to this single point. This then grounds any Trailer metal, including exterior skin, so long as it meets the Trailer Frame.

The Fine Print. DC Negative and 115 VAC Earth Ground come together at one point in this wiring suggestion, and safely. It then carries to Chassis and to either Park Pedestal or Genny Frame. Grounding the Genny Frame, if you feel the need to do so, then carries it to Earth Ground. You can also count on Trailer Safety Chains laid in a damp 'hole' to Earth ground everything, or can count on Bumper Jacks to do the same IF care is taken.

Eons ago, a House Receptacle 3rd Wire Earth Ground pin to the Ground Rod had to be ~25 Ohms or less. If one thinks of a Trailer as the House and a Genny as a mini-Hoover Dam, wiring protocol is the same.

Xantrex is a major player in Home Inverters. It makes some sense that Grounds and Neutral are brought out separately to meet Code. Measurements will confirm their protocol.

I used to design and build Pro Sound Systems. It's convention there to have selectable Ground connections. Raging 'hum' in front of 10,000 folks is ugly. Ground Loops causing hum are eliminated by the Single Point Ground method suggested above. A Voltmeter measuring Genny and Inverter Neutrals-to-Earth Ground resistances will settle the questions.

If the Trailer Frame is grounded both by Safety Chains; Bumper Jacks; and a grounded Genny Frame, it's of no consequence. As with large Sound Systems, items 'float' until you ground them; exactly like the Trailer Frame. If you're very confident that these other grounding methods positively work, a Genny Frame not grounded separately would ground back through the Trailer through an adequate Cord at <the 25 Ohm Home standard.

GFIs compare outgoing current on the Hot Lead to returning current on the Neutral Lead. If it's unbalanced beyond low value 'x' - as when caused by a Body shunting current to Ground - the GFI trips. Properly-installed GFIs are always the best bet, IMO, because it skirts most all these other issues.
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Re: Well Grounded

Postby Optimistic Paranoid » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:35 pm

Engineer Guy wrote:I used to design and build Pro Sound Systems. It's convention there to have selectable Ground connections. Raging 'hum' in front of 10,000 folks is ugly. Ground Loops causing hum are eliminated by the Single Point Ground method suggested above. A Voltmeter measuring Genny and Inverter Neutrals-to-Earth Ground resistances will settle the questions.


There's a coincidence. Back in the seventies, during the time I now fondly refer to as my massively mis-spent youth, I was a sound roadie for some of the local bands here in the Hudson Valley. We used mostly Peavey stuff. It's been a while, but I bet I could still mike a mean drum set if I had to.

(Cue Billy Joel's "I've Loved These Days" as a subtle background track.)

Anyway, I thank both you and Corwin for taking the time to answer my questions. I feel I've got a good handle on the issue now.

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Article from WISH-TV... a CBS station in Indy

Postby prohandyman » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:00 pm

F.Y.I.

Teen dies of electrocution in Muncie
Updated: Monday, 25 Jul 2011, 2:59 PM EDT
Published : Sunday, 24 Jul 2011, 11:30 PM EDT

MUNCIE, Ind. (WISH) - David L. Boyle, 18, was pronounced dead around 2:44 Sunday morning of electrocution, according to Delaware County Coroner Scott Hahn.

Boyle was staying in a camper on a friend’s property in the 7000 block of Meeker Avenue in Muncie. An electrical cord stretched from the trailer to the camper is believed to be the cause of the electrocution.

The day before, people at the residence had been getting shocked whenever they touched the metal door handle on the trailer. So as a precaution, they put tape on the door handles.

Early Sunday, after the rain, Boyle went outside barefoot. That’s when he stepped down onto a metal step attached the trailer and was electrocuted, according to Hahn.

Medics worked on him at the scene, and he was then taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead.
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