how to terminate stranded wiring on a breaker

Anything electric, AC or DC

how to terminate stranded wiring on a breaker

Postby aggie79 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:25 am

For my teardrop 120v wiring, I am using 12 gauge "marine" stranded wiring. The strands are very fine.

My question is how should I terminate the hot wire on the binding post of a breaker. Should I just strip the insulation, twist the stranded wire, insert it into a binding post and tighten? Or, should I use a more "solid" end, like a butt splice connecter crimped on the hot wire with the other end inserted into the breaker binding post?

(Please excuse the probably incorrect electrical terms. I know the principles of wiring, but not the terminology. I have my books handy and am testing all circuits before energizing my WFCO power center.)

Thank you for your ideas,

Tom
Tom (& Linda)
For build info on our former Silver Beatle teardrop:
Build Thread

93503
User avatar
aggie79
Super Duper Lifetime Member
 
Posts: 5405
Images: 686
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: Watauga, Texas

Postby bobhenry » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 am

Someone on here recently posted a nice picture of his installation. I went looking but can't find it.
Last edited by bobhenry on Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Growing older but not up !
User avatar
bobhenry
Ten Grand Club
Ten Grand Club
 
Posts: 10368
Images: 2623
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:49 am
Location: INDIANA, LINDEN

Postby Moho » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:55 am

Found this info from Sqaure D regarding fine wire and mechanical lugs. Do the sleeves

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf
User avatar
Moho
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 244
Images: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Top

Postby KenC » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:19 am

statement has been retracted
Last edited by KenC on Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
KenC
Donating Member
 
Posts: 136
Images: 41
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: Menifee, CA
Top

Postby Moho » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:26 am

KenC wrote:I think you could solder the strands together so they would not split apart then insert into the lug and tighten


Solder and 110v is a bad combination. Solder melting point is way to low for 110v mechanical connection applications.
User avatar
Moho
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 244
Images: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Top

Postby jss06 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:27 am

I would strip the ends. Twist the wire tight and then tin the end with solder. This will give you a solid connection at the screw terminal.
User avatar
jss06
Palladium Donating Member
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Carrollton, TX
Top

Postby jss06 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:29 am

Moho wrote:
KenC wrote:I think you could solder the strands together so they would not split apart then insert into the lug and tighten


Solder and 110v is a bad combination. Solder melting point is way to low for 110v mechanical connection applications.


Depends on the solder. Nickle/Silver melts at a higher temp than lead/nickle.

In either case the wiring insulation will melt before the solder does. And if that is the case you need to run a bigger wire anyway.

That being said, I actually ran 20 AMP plenum grade solid core Romex for the 110 in my trailer. With how mine is built there is very little movement and vibration that could cause the wire to break.
Last edited by jss06 on Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jss06
Palladium Donating Member
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Carrollton, TX
Top

Postby eamarquardt » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:31 am

Moho wrote:
KenC wrote:I think you could solder the strands together so they would not split apart then insert into the lug and tighten


Solder and 110v is a bad combination. Solder melting point is way to low for 110v mechanical connection applications.


IMHO, any connection that gets hot enough to melt solder is gonna cause problems regardless of the solder.

Cheers,

Gus
The opinions in this post are my own. My comments are directed to those that might like an alternative approach to those already espoused.There is the right way,the wrong way,the USMC way, your way, my way, and the highway.
"I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it." Klaatu-"The Day the Earth Stood Still"
"You can't handle the truth!"-Jack Nicholson "A Few Good Men"
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The Marines don't have that problem"-Ronald Reagan
User avatar
eamarquardt
Silver Donating Member
 
Posts: 3179
Images: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, State of Euphoria (Ca)
Top

Postby Moho » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:32 am

If it was a solid permanent solder joint, it's fine. We're talking a mechanical connection which is an altogether different animal.
User avatar
Moho
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 244
Images: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Top

Postby Moho » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:37 am

eamarquardt wrote:IMHO, any connection that gets hot enough to melt solder is gonna cause problems regardless of the solder


Yes but the solder will melt, can drip onto another connection and cause a chain reaction of problems. Not to mention the fact you're all of the sudden loosing mass at the connection when the solder melts which can result in sparking conditions instead of just the normal heat/trip the breaker condition.

Solder is BAD BAD BAD in this application and I will argue this until the bitter end :R
User avatar
Moho
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 244
Images: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Top

Postby eamarquardt » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:44 am

Moho wrote:
eamarquardt wrote:IMHO, any connection that gets hot enough to melt solder is gonna cause problems regardless of the solder


Yes but the solder will melt, can drip onto another connection and cause a chain reaction of problems. Not to mention the fact you're all of the sudden loosing mass at the connection when the solder melts which can result in sparking conditions instead of just the normal heat/trip the breaker condition.

Solder is BAD BAD BAD in this application and I will argue this until the bitter end :R


There may be a good reason not to tin the wires but your reason, IMHO, isn't it. I've never seen a tinned wire drip solder. Just the opposite, when the wire is heated the solder is "wicked" up further in the wire.

The problem I've seen with tinning conductors is that tinned thin stranded cables tend to break where the tinning ends as when the wire flexes all the stress/bending is concentrated in one place.

It seems as though crimped ferrules are the preferred approach from what I could find on the internet.

If you open up most motors you'll find that most of them have soldered connections inside them.

So, please argue to the bitter end and find the real reason that tinning the wires isn't a good practice. I for one would like to know, but again, dripping solder doesn't seem like the "likely suspect".

Cheers,

Gus
The opinions in this post are my own. My comments are directed to those that might like an alternative approach to those already espoused.There is the right way,the wrong way,the USMC way, your way, my way, and the highway.
"I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it." Klaatu-"The Day the Earth Stood Still"
"You can't handle the truth!"-Jack Nicholson "A Few Good Men"
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The Marines don't have that problem"-Ronald Reagan
User avatar
eamarquardt
Silver Donating Member
 
Posts: 3179
Images: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, State of Euphoria (Ca)
Top

Postby Moho » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:47 pm

Not at mechanical connections like below, which is his installation question. A solder joint at a non mechanical connection is fine for 110v.

Image

Solder travels in the direction of heat. Whos to say the hotter surface is not the lug depending on the material it is made of. Once the solder has traveled to the hot area, depending on how much is applied it can pool and drip due to gravitational pull on the liquid solder.

Regardless a solid tinned wire has a bigger mass than a non tinned wire. When the mass decreases the contact surface area is therefore reduced which can result in sparks. It's called a limited short circuit.

Also keep in mind you are also most likely making two different metal connections, so the coefficient of expansion of the two metals will be different to begin with, so adding another element with a low melting point, which can easily turn to a liquid is just unsafe at a mechanical connection.

The chances of all of this is remote, however I'd sleep better at night knowing any additional chance (no matter how small) of fire has been reduced to the best of my ability for myself and my family.

"The most common cause of an electrical fire is improper installation" - The National Fire Protection Association

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" - Benjamin Franklin

Image
User avatar
Moho
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 244
Images: 69
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Top

Standard - Best Practices

Postby Engineer Guy » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:34 pm

I'll weigh in on methods that have worked for me since my first Ham Radio Station at age 12, up to Retirement from supporting Industrial Sites like Research Accelerators and Semiconductor Fabs routinely using Voltages well into 6 digits. Mis-wiring items like Valves controlling corrosive Etchant Gases on Semiconductor Tools has Life -> Death consequences. I'm used to high-stakes situations requiring practices that also have significant Legal consequences. After hours, I've wired everything from large P.A. Systems to Trailers. I won't defend my methods to the bitter end because either you believe in my supporting observations, or you don't. I'm not 'right'. I am experienced.

1. Discussing 'low' temp melting Lead/Tin Solder at all is a red herring. It's largely off the Market. Silver Solder is the de factor standard, and melts at around 500 F [~230 C] degrees minimum. A Table of Solders and respective melting points is in the Wikipedia Article sourced below.

As Gus notes by implication, 70 C, 105 C or 150 C Insulation melting first is the larger concern. I'm in 'violent agreement' with his position above. Properly captured and secured connections don't heat up significantly. So, how flowing Solder behaves is irrelevant because it never goes fluid.

2. Soldered, mechanical connections are used in plenty of Mobile Applications experiencing vibration. Mobile Ham Radio Gear and Hi-Rel Video Broadcast Semi Truck 'Suites' come to mind. Same with transported Concert Sound/Light Rigs, and Tube Amps for Guitars that simply can't be allowed to fail on Stage. Indeed, the methods I prefer are used by those 'ruggedizing' Audio/Video Gear for higher reliability. Portable Cell Sites are brought in for large Trade Shows to not collapse Cell infrastructure in/around Conference Centers.

3. The salient text from Square D is copied below. The point, which I've followed for Decades, is to not have stranded Wire 'whiskers' migrate away from the connection. Ferrules achieve this 'desired end result', as we called it in Electronics Manufacturing, by containing Wires. More importantly, it's one method compatible with various skill levels. It's the lowest common denominator using low cost, ordinary materials [Ferrules]. It's not necessarily the safest method; it's the easiest to achieve in the Field w/o Soldering. A Breaker Screw seats down into a 'captured' Silver Solder connection not unlike how a Furniture Leg sinks down into Carpet. Whether Solid or Silver-soldered Stranded, there must always be a 'match' between a Lug and the Wire size it captures.

4. My method is to solder. Strip back Insulation; twist Wire strands together; use non-ferrous Scotch Brite to clean Wire[s] if necessary; apply proper Flux; Solder with Silver Plumbing Solder. As taught over Decades, clean off cooled Flux residue with Isopropyl Alcohol.

Tricks are to lightly 'flick' the soldered Wire to knock off excess Solder. Another trick is to flatten the soldered Wire with Pliers or Vise Grips. When connecting Stranded Wire to regular Electrical Outlet Screws, I pre-form stripped Wire around a Screwdriver Handle to ensure maximum contact area under the same-sized Outlet Screw. Compared with the nominal, yet Code-approved, method of shoving solid Wire into the rear of an Outlet, I prefer the intrinsic safety of my method which increases surface area, lowering contact resistance. There's no way I'd pass 15 or 20 Amps through a friction-fit Outlet connection.

These steps and Tools are 2nd nature to me, and go quickly... Of course, loose Wire 'whiskers' are trimmed away; another advantage to capturing Stranded Wire with Silver Solder.

The keen Eye will see similar contact area, and resultant low contact resistance, from an AC Breaker Screw tightened down on Solid Copper Wire or on cleaned, soldered Stranded Wire. Silver is the superior conductor to Copper and is safer re: dissimilar Metals 'mismatch' and resultant Thermal Runaway.

Soldering creates a malleable, Solid Wire equivalent from conductively-superior Silver. Full stop.

Silver Solder doesn't just heat to 500 F degrees and 'melt'. This statistically-improbable event is repeated above, as though repeating it makes it likely or probable. Some Politicians practice this same behavior: repeat until believed.

Compounds to enhance conductivity are used by many out of preference, or because they're Industry-mandated. The right choice of 'Loctite' Thread lock applied after Breaker Screw tightening prevents loosening.

Soldered Wire-to-Stranded Wire breakage is best prevented by using Tie Wraps, or similar restraints. Old Timers here will remember Waxed Cording used in Avionics and Ham Gear.

The inclusion of a burning, mobile RV picture is disingenuous, and causes me to distrust other information provided. Statistically, it's more probable a burning Vehicle resulted from hazards far greater than arcing 115 VAC Wiring, like flammable Gasoline, Diesel, Propane or faulty +12 VDC Wiring. For those of us who've dealt with Commercial TTs, and Wiring Practices, wiring a Home-built Trailer more safely than a Commercial Trailer is a breeze.

Many, like Aretha Franklin, are afraid to fly. That's cool. I've flown more International Miles than I can remember. I know it's far safer than driving the same distance. In a like manner, if there's some consolation in protecting Family by not soldering 115 VAC connections, that's also cool. But, let's not confuse a comforting belief with scientifically-defensible best practices. The Semiconductor Industry I retired from wouldn't tolerate 'feel good' justifications or practices.

Wikipedia - Silver Solder

From Square D:

'As the wire binding screw is advanced into the lug, the strands are displaced to the sides of the screw. Some of the strands may actually be drawn between the threads and the lug body. This condition leads to a false torque indication which may result in overheating and easy wire pullout. If the lug opening is much larger than the wire binding screw, all of the strands may be displaced and the screw will bottom out in the lug. This also results in a false torque indication and the same poor connection results.

A solution to these problems is to use sleeves, around the strands of the wire. Conductor sleeves are defined, as any moderately thin copper shim stock material (3/1000 to 20/1000 thick) that, when wrapped around the exposed conductor surface, will contain the wire strands as a single compact mass. The sleeve will:

1. Keep the strands together and prevent fraying or spreading out as the cable is inserted into the lug body.

2. Hold the strands tightly together as the wire binding screw is tightened onto the cable. This prevents the strands from being forced up around the sides of the wire binding screw. The result is a secure mechanical and electrical connection'.
~Reality proceeds with or without your consensus~
User avatar
Engineer Guy
The 300 Club
 
Posts: 480
Images: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:19 pm
Location: W. CO
Top

Re: how to terminate stranded wiring on a breaker

Postby bdosborn » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:46 pm

aggie79 wrote:For my teardrop 120v wiring, I am using 12 gauge "marine" stranded wiring. The strands are very fine.


If the circuit breaker, receptacle, switch, etc. has a little metal plate that's compressed by a screw at the termination point, its rated for stranded wire. Twist the wire tight and make sure you screw the plate down tight.

Still not comfortable? The Home store carries pigtail connectors with a spade connector on one end that you can wire nut onto the stranded wire.

Image

Bruce
2009 6.5'X11' TTT - Boxcar
All it takes is a speck of faith and a few kilowatts of sweat and grace.
Image
Boxcar Build
aVANger Build
User avatar
bdosborn
Donating Member
 
Posts: 5595
Images: 806
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: CO, Littleton
Top

Re: how to terminate stranded wiring on a breaker

Postby starleen2 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:03 pm

aggie79 wrote:For my teardrop 120v wiring, I am using 12 gauge "marine" stranded wiring. The strands are very fine.

My question is how should I terminate the hot wire on the binding post of a breaker. Should I just strip the insulation, twist the stranded wire, insert it into a binding post and tighten? Or, should I use a more "solid" end, like a butt splice connecter crimped on the hot wire with the other end inserted into the breaker binding post?

Tom


Tom - since we are obviously building rocket ships here - the simple answer to your question is that either method will work for the application. it's really a catch 22 debate about the merits of stranded going solid, each having it's own merit - but in reality both will work with an acceptable level of comfort. I've seen the wire fail before the connector/ connection ever did - so make sure your stranded wire is the correct gauge - either connection method will work - short answer.
User avatar
starleen2
5th Teardrop Club
 
Posts: 16272
Images: 224
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 8:26 pm
Location: Pea Ridge ,AR
Top

Next

Return to Electrical Secrets

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest