The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

[KCStudly]

Newbie, but been lurking for a couple of years (read the big Thrifty thread from start to finish back when it was 175 some odd pgs.)

Introduced myself here http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=48629 with my first (and long winded) post.

Here are some images of my design, sort of a rimple, meets canned ham in a TD size (I guess it's a Benroy?). 64 inch outside (60+ inside, queen size) x 9'-8", plus a skotch, length at the floor (82" cabin inside length) with a little overhang for the curvature of the rear hatch. Slight curvature throughout the roof. Windows in the doors will be Hehr flush mount with tip out screened bottom section and fixed upper (my first purchase for the tear Went looking for window radius dimensions and came across what I considered to be the ideal window at a fair price for new). Length just kept growing until I could fit my cooler on slides lengthwise under the galley counter.

Frame will be custom built to suit. I have plenty of welding experience, including TIG, and my best friend owns his own fabrication business with a 32x40 two story modern barn on his property where he has invited me to build. Also where I built my first trailer, a double dropped axle car hauling flat bed (sold the BBC 67 SS clone Chevelle, but managed to finish building the hauler, oh well, pics of that later). Axle placement has been preliminarily worked out using Angib's guidelines, but may be refined when I start getting the camping gear weighed and storage locations worked out (flexibility in placing battery, spare tire will be same as Jeep, shared, mounted in Jeep std location on tailgate). Axle will be under the leaf springs and 15" rims with 31" tires matching Jeep. Galley counter height will work good for me (I'm 6 ft) but maybe a little high for the wife. Will most likely have picnic table in camp, and it just worked out that way in order to get the cooler on slides and still clear the counter support rail, while keeping the modest off road frame clearance that I have planned for (IIRC the galley counter will be 36" above level ground).








The coupler depicted is my own custom design offroad style swivel joint, but may be simplified to a std 50 deg 2" coupler (tongue rails are at 50 deg so I can go either way).

The cabinet let into the front wall is hardwood (maple or poplar) and extends into the tongue box far enough to allow "sporting goods" (emergency bear repellent) to be stored securely, but the front section that is accessible from outside is foam for light weight and support equipment storage; perhaps 12V marine battery depending on weight distribution. The inner and outer sections of the cabinet/tongue box are divided by a plywood bulkhead. Where the wood extends past the foam wall it is mitered so that it slopes down (biscuit joined 1x). I'm a little bit concerned that flex between the tongue and main box will put stress on this thru wall joint, so feel free to make suggestions if you have a better idea.

(Edit 2/16/12) The floor is 1/4" (3/16) luan sandwich over a frame of 1x2 (3/4" x 1-1/2" on edge) and 2x2 (1-1/2" x 1-1/2" at perimeter and skin butt joints) with 1-1/2" insulation. (end edit).

I wanted the edges of the galley walls to be able to take some abuse so there will be laminated (or if I chicken out, jointed segment and routed) arched rails glued on prior to covering. Bottoms of the walls will be 1-1/2" (2x) square to give a good screwed joint to the floor and to provide some rigidity to the foam core during handling at construction (maybe overkill). There is a little bumped up section of wood on this rail at the back curb side to beef up where the cooler slide screws to the bottom of the wall.

I started the design in a traditional construction, but then fell into the clutches of GPW, Eaglesdare and the big Thrifty thread, did a near complete redesign, but wanted to retain the wood interior. So the inside walls and headliner will be luan or birch ply. Cabinets in 1x. No cabinet doors modelled yet, may not bother at first to get campable, may not bother at all. Bulkhead is 1/4" (3/16) luan over 3/4 foam and 1x frame work. Side walls are 1-1/2" foam. (I will have to get you guys a photo of the Dow factory yard merely a stones throw over the hill from me; Blue foam board by the truck and train load. Yet my local BBox stores have pink; cold here in winter.)

I intend to build the floor and walls and then form the ceiling headliner over the walls (may need to build temporary support structure) then cap that with 1-1/2 kerf cut foam, or maybe two layers of 3/4". This way the ceiling membrane will be tied through the corner joints of the wall-to-ceiling joint, foam glued to wood glued to foam, which I have read is the stronger glue joint than foam to foam, IIRC.

All for now, what do you think? I am open to all opinions.

The frame as shown is not quite complete; there will be some gusset plates to mount the landing gear, once I decide on the final brand/style and get them in hand to confirm dimensions.

I am not going for super light weight (needs to be rugged enough for some modest offroad and be able to haul plenty of camping gear, CI, (and some guns), but I will try not to over build out of ignorance (I have a mechanical engineering background, so that should help here). It probably will not be especially thrifty either since I do not want to spend a bunch of time chasing materials, and would like to maintain a certain level of quality (undefined... not ultra fine quality, but I want a certain peace of mind on materials and fit-and-finish).

Still have a few design elements to model before creating shop prints and getting started in the shop, plus it is cold here.

"Bear" with me, I don't know how big this thing gets, but I think I'm hooked.

KC
Poet Creek Or Bust

[GPW]

Oh !!! Thank goodness a Mechanical Engineer showed up !!!!!!!!... KC , looks like you’ll be getting all the tough engineering questions now .... we’ve been running on faith so far .... It will be Nice to know the engineering facts now !!!

Glad you’re here , your design looks Super ...

[eaglesdare]

well i guess he did read the long thread, with "bear" in quotes.

welcome to the foamie section. i agree with glenn on everything. another technical person will be great. and your design looks great.

[bonnie]

Hi! Welcome to the foamie world. I really like your design. Q. How deep is your galley? Will you be able to reach comfortably?

I would like the specs for your frame. Thanks!

[linuxmanxxx]

If you sandwich the inside with the luan you will have a seriously strong box yet very light compared to if you used solid plywood thruout your build.

So I take it you are leaning toward the canvas exterior but have you decided yet on what the exterior hardener will be that you use?

[KCStudly]

GPW, First I want to say that all of my ideas have been "borrowed" or inspired by this fine and very talented group of collaborators.

Now the legal bit: While I do have an associates degree and can run a stress calc here and there, really all that gets me is a more experienced perception of "That looks about right". That being said, I am never afraid to give my opinion, but it is just that; my opinion. You assume all risk, same as me, same as anyone. If a novice sees this and thinks, "oh good, he knows what he's doing, I'll just copy him", feel free....but, know that this is a prototype effort, no guarantee.

Do I think it will work successfully and have all of the integrity of a traditional? Absolutely (IMO). Do I think it will be lighter than ply? The foam parts surely will be. The whole thing? Schmaybe (love that!). Depends on who's trailer we are comparing it to. Are any two ever the same? When I get the model a little further along I will look at the 'mass properties' generated by the software, and (assuming I have designated the proper densities for each component) we'll see what it says.

Eagle & Bonnie, Thank you for the welcomes and compliments.

Bonnie, I will confirm and post up some more details on the frame, perhaps tomorrow evening. I use the design software provided to me by my employer, but to do so, and to have access to my design, I stay after work (up to 3 hrs at a go). It was a long day for me today repairing an industrial mixer (anyone need 3000 lbs of denture adhesive with a tiny little bit of food grade grease that leaked into the batch; we're only going to throw it away (properly) ). From memory the side rails and rear xmbr are 2x2x1/8 wall SQ tube. The intermediate xmbrs are 1-1/2 x 1/8 angle. The tongue and front xmbr may be 2x2x3/16 SQ tube, unless Angib says 1/8 wall is ok (he is, after all, the trailer frame Guru here ). The body mounting clips along the front and rear xmbrs are the same 1-1/2x1/8 angle, or I may miter them from extra SQ tube so that they have built-in side gussets (as seen elsewhere on this forum). The two rear corner clips may go away and get incorporated into the jack mounting plates. The field of the floor is attached through holes in the flats of the L shape xmbrs.

Not visible in the images above are the 2 x 4 SQ bolt blocks (1-1/2 x 3-1/2 x 3-1/2) built into the the floor panel at each of these locations. Also, the intermediate xmbrs are strategically placed to align with the 2x boards built into the floor panel frame that back up the floor skin butt joints (remember my floor is 64 wide, but I expect to be able to use most of the drops for the cabinetry). All of these bolt locations will be populated with threaded inserts installed before the upper floor skin goes on, capturing and hiding them under the finished floor.

I added the little SQ tube extensions with the capped miter cuts behind where the tongue tubes tie into the main rails to act as rock sliders, but I don't like the way they look 'hanging down' right under the doors, and don't really expect them to be needed anyway. The gentleman working on all of the special tooling in order to go into TD production, I believe he is in Oregon (Oregon Tears), has very nice looking compound miters on the ends of his tongue rails, and I may "steal" that look instead.

The front vertical corners of the trailer frame main rectangle will be fitted with quarter sawn segments of 1-1/2 OD tubing to give a 3/4 inch radius matching the radius of the roof/wall joint. (I think big Mike is worrying about this wall/roof radius too much, kind of like many do about their first hatch but what do I know I've never built a camper...so no disrespect intended )

Re: galley access. So let's add this up, roughly, the front wall is 1-1/2 thick (plus luan), the mattress is 80 inches long (forget how much I left for tucking), the galley bulkhead is 1-1/8 inch thick (3/4 + 2x3/16), call it 83 or 84 inches if I remembered to leave room for tucking the bed covers.

So that's 7 ft, and I said, if I am recalling correctly, that the floor length is 10ft6, so that's 3ft6 in the galley.

After rechecking the model I see that my memory is not so good. The actual length from the front of the floor all the way back to the rear edge of the galley is 9'-8" (+5/16") and the cabin inside dimension is 82 inches. So that makes the galley counter 31-1/2 inches deep; easily reach the back. The top galley shelf is at 64-3/4" high, so is also easily reachable by me (and most non-vertically challenged sorts). For those who are vertically challenged, BBQ tongs are standard camping equipment and can be pressed into service as "grabbers"; multi-taskers.

The hatch ribs are 3 inch deep (IIRC) and the counter edge is 3/4 thk (1x), with a little clearance for fudge. The cubbies to the left of the cooler space have an additional 3/4 face frame set back under this counter edge, but the cooler tray, when pushed in, only sits back far enough so that it does not stick past the front of that. Don't remember the cooler long dimension off the top of my head, but the tray is a little longer. So the back of the galley counter is about 3 ft off the ground and a little more than 3 ft back. Will have to check the specific numbers on the top shelf. I'm 6ft and I have some reach on top of that. The wife is 5-2 and she claims that the upper cabinet shelves in our home kitchen are "useless", so that will be my territory. I do most of the more ambitious cooking and have been told that, "just because we are going camping it does not mean that we will not be on vacation", so I expect to do the majority of the cooking (one of the skills that I did not mention yet), or to coordinate with my sister, who is also creative in the kitchen.

...and Eagle, way to put your foot down on the foam vs. ply controversy. I'm proud of you for your no BS take on that. Bam, that's that, now play nice

Steve, Got the interior panel skin-on-foam idea here (maybe it was yours?). Decided I wanted the rich wood interior (if luan can be made to look rich, maybe gunstock red stain), and thought it would be an easier application than the canvas. Yes canvas outside, because I think it will be easier to seal and maintain than wood, easier for someone with little fiberglass experience to apply, less clean-up and, presummably, more environmentally friendly. "Glue" for canvas will be chosen from one of the top contenders (TBII, Latex paint, water based contact cement, or lagging compound). I'm undecided, not in a hurry to decide just yet, and, based on the experimentation by others to date, think any of them would give acceptable results. Glue for interior panels to foam will likely be the contact cement or PL.

It occurs to me that I said the cabinets will be 1x. Meant that the face frames would be 1x, but the shelves and any dividing panels will be the 1/4 (3/16) luan. The under galley counter dividers will be 3/4 sandwich.

I also intend to erect the galley bulkhead and as much of the cabinetry framework that makes sense before the walls go on for easier access and work flow.

KC
Poet Creek Or Bust!

p.s. How do I get a signature line to automatically show at the end of my posts?

[Wolfgang92025]

KC.,

Welcome to the madness. Looks like you have been planning this for a while.
In the top of the web page is a profile button. In it is a signature block you can customize.

[S. Heisley]

KC, I applaud you, dear Sir!

With your qualifications, the only thing most of will probably be able to do is make conversation and cheer you on! (That's where I'll probably be.)

Good luck on your build. We'll be watching!

[linuxmanxxx]

Steve, Got the interior panel skin-on-foam idea here (maybe it was yours?). Decided I wanted the rich wood interior (if luan can be made to look rich, maybe gunstock red stain), and thought it would be an easier application than the canvas. Yes canvas outside, because I think it will be easier to seal and mainatin than wood, easier for someone with little fiberglass experience to apply, less clean-up and, presummably, more environmentally friendly. "Glue" for canvas will be chosen from one of the top contenders (TBII, Latex paint, water based contact cement, or lagging compound). I'm undecided, not in a hurry to decide just yet, and, based on the experimentation by others to date, think any of them would give acceptable results. Glue for interior panels to foam will likely be the contact cement or PL.

Check this out it might be interesting to you if you aren't overly concerned about cost as it's slightly pricey till you buy bulk but man this stuff is wack looking and easy to apply just as a laminate. I got some samples and it looks exactly like high grade gloss furniture finish. It's called envirawood http://envirawood.com/products/standard When I get the buying power this will be the high end option for my interior walls.

[KCStudly]

Thank you Wolfgang. Have been following behind the scenes for over a year if not two.

I kind of hate to even try to estimate how many hrs I have in design and research (mostly research). Me with net pad in lap, wife, "Trailering?", me, "Yep, trailering."

Thought I had put in a signature when I started, but I guess it didn't take the first time.

[KCStudly]

Ah Sharon, I'm so happy you dropped by my build. You, Maam, have more camper building experience and a test and try attitude that I can only hope to mimmick. Love your interior treatments and guts to do a lift roof. Camp on!

Steve, one of the reasons that I have planned on the luan is that there is a possibility that I can get many sheets surplus from work, slightly beat up around the edges from handling, and not perfectly flat, but they bought it for a big project and then went another way.

Karl has big steel layout/welding tables at his shop (5x10 ft x 3/4 or 1 inch thk) and I am hopful that any minor warping in the panels can be pulled out thru vacuum bagging or through the judicious application of weight on these flat tables during glue up.

Even if I end up buying new sheets, it is more available and, while I don't mind spending a little for the right materials, I think the luan would be fine for my purposes.

[linuxmanxxx]

You can laminate the envirawood directly onto the luan as you can order it just as a skin you can glue directly on. Turns the luan into high end finished exotic or standard woods and it has a very high fire rating as well. Interesting stuff just a suggestion to look at it is all.

[KCStudly]

Okay, I am at work now (off the clock) and have edited my two big posts from 2/7/12 to correct the information about floor length and galley access. Basically I mis-stated that the floor had grown to 10ft 6in long, when infact it had grown from my original plan of 9 ft (with the cooler athwartships...did I mention my time working on Navy boats?) to 9ft 6in, then a little more to 9ft 8in (...and 5/16) in order to turn the cooler lengthwise and gain a bunch of storage in the galley.

Any additional questions in the next hour or so and I should be able to grab whatever is asked for directly from the model.

Model has the current weight without axle, suspension, wheels & tires, any allowance for glue, staples, screws, canvas, electrical, latches, and windows (basically the rough shell trailer, cabinet frame work, tongue box and cooler w/ slide tray) at about 838 lbs. It does include the bolts holding the floor to the trailer and is using .001 lbs/in^3 spec'd for Owens Corning Foamular XPS (extruded polystyrene) for all of the foam.

This also does not include the foam filler in the bulkhead wall, as I want to make sure I have the sub frame members properly located to receive the attaching screws for the galley cabinetry before I model them (though the sub frame is in there).

Also, the cooler weight is set at 206 lbs which is way over spec'd as a worst case scenario providing a margin for dynamic loading on the sliding tray. That would be a 96 qt cooler filled with water, and my cooler is not that big. The slides are Rockler #27192, 28 inch full extension, Series 758, rated at 220 lbs (not sure at the moment if that is each or for the pair; either is okay).

Also, the swivel coupling is probably heavier than a std coupling by a few pounds due to the solid receiver stock being included.

This may be off some if I have not been as diligent as I should have been at designating the material type at the time each piece was created. The default density is .036 lb/in^3 with birch being more like .020 lb/in^3. (Inventor has a vast library of materials, plus I can create my own 'styles'.)

[KCStudly]

Started in on the shop drawings today. Still have to mull over some cabinet details and decide if I am going to put a stereo and movie watching capability (net pad) into the cabin. I have a nice Kenwood head unit, a small 4 ch amp, and some fair speakers taken from a former daily driver just sitting on the shelf. I'm trying to think a little beyond the Idaho trip. Having a lot of electronics on this trip won't do much good unless I add some kind of solar charging system, or we charge battery off of the Jeep during day trips to local lookouts and trail heads. Ideally I will have the build campable before mid summer so that we can do at least one local trip, check for any issues, and "forgot to bring that" items. Maybe the wife will enjoy camping after all if I warm her up to it with a short trip somewhere that has toilets and hot showers. Maybe Vermont.

Anywho, so I started in on the trailer frame drawings, here's a snap shot. Probably a little blurry due to conversion and down sizing, but it can give you an idea of what I am working on (also just part of what I do for a living to keep this big ole ball of wax rolling).



This may seem a little over the top to most "build as you go" types, but I am very detail oriented ( could you tell?) and the software I'm using makes this level of documentation very easy for me to kick out. For all the time I have into planning the thought of offering fully detailed plans for a reasonable and modest fee (assuming a successful prototype out come) had crossed my mind. By my way of thinking it is a whole lot easier to work out all the little oopsesy and gotchas using free floating electrons and my time sitting in a reasonably comfortable chair, than by sweating and cuz'n and wasting material getting it wrong in the shop

And here's a little inspiration for the trip, Burnt Knob vista located on the Magruder near Poet Creek.

pic snagged from this guy's blog
http://jeffhead.com/magruder/index.htm

Here's something BIG! Karl, happened to be at my work place late this evening doing a hand rail install (tractor trailer drove over the old one ). When he was done he came in and was able to get a look at my design for the first time. After looking at the model for a bit he says, "How would you like to have your curves cut out on a CNC router?"

Karl has a regular customer that owns a custom cabinet shop and general contracting business. In fact, before I took my current job he had set me up with a job interview with this guy. The guy told me that he was either going to hire me or buy a $25k CNC router. Guess which way he went? Well Karl does enough business with this guy that he maybe able to get time on the machine gratis, or for the cost of a cutter or two, if the foam dulls them up. Full commercial dust collection system, too.

I thought for a second and said, "He's not gonna want to spend any time converting my files to run the CNC", and Karl says, "yeah but (a former employee of his that I won't name here) works with CNC milling machines now, and he would convert them for you!" Shazam!!!

That coud jump start this build in a big way if it comes through.

[GPW]

CNC creates many possibilities , not only for cutting out the parts , but doing the joinery too .. could be a Snap -together Foamie ...

I also have access to a CNC , just don’t have any idea how to do the files for the machine ... many possibilities ...