hot water setup help

Converting Cargo Trailers into TTTs

hot water setup help

Postby Mister Ed » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:11 pm

ok
need help i have no room in the inn to install a water heater how would you do this as a stand alone unit
i have a ECCO GAS HOTWATER SHOWER UNIT ... i was thinking about a 5 gal,tank with gas tank and with a 12 v rv pump in a box (cabinet) and recycleing the (preheat) water back to the tank and use a valve to switch the water to a shower and or my sink use this way i have hotwater for some time with out useing the gas part of the heater has anyone done this
after 7 mo,s and 5000$ im at this point and about 98 % done this has me stumped also you can read my blog, with photos here

http://flipflopinnresort.blogspot.com/
you may need to cut / paste to open???
thanks from Mister ED
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby 8ball_99 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:57 pm

I would think if you had the room for the water tank, pump, ect that you could fit a standard RV water heater in there. They only take up a space of around 13x13x20. As far as what your talking about.. I see no reason why you can't pump water from a tank through the on demand heater and back to the tank. All this would do is turn your tankless into a tank heater. If the tank was insulated the water should stay warm for a while. I'm still not sure I understand how this setup would take up less room. Its probably one of those if you see it in person you get it..
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby Shadow Catcher » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:57 am

I had to look up the Eco Temp heater http://www.eccotemp.com/eccotemp-l5-por ... ter-heater and there are a couple of problems I see with trying to recycle water. The main one is forming deposits from the recycled water inside the water heater. It is made to be used outside only and requires 20 to 80 PSI water pressure so yes you would need a RV type water pump and frankly 5 gallons is not going to go far, or more correctly will go very fast. Having a portable water tank holding more might be a better idea and then you get into needing a gray water tank. The manual http://www.eccotemp.com/content/L5.pdf
I installed a shower point in the side of Compass Rose and I still have to figure out how to recover shower water. PahaQue has a shower/potty tent with a floor that does that and that will likely be the ultimate solution.
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby 8ball_99 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:07 am

I would not want to use my greywater for flushing the toilet.. Yes grey water is just water from the shower and sink, But I don't think most realize how funky it really is, Even more so after a couple of days in the tank.. It doesn't smell good, it attracts drain flys and it has sediment.. To reuse it in the toilet it would really need to be filtered. Which I guess could work and if you camped in the desert or something might very well be worth it.. Around here I think the cost and trouble to recycle it would be more then the cost of just carrying a little more water.

As far as 5 gallons go. Thats plenty for a shower. Thats one of the reasons I haven't understood the reason why everyone wants on demand heaters.. With our 6 gallon RV heater we can take a couple showers back to back easily. Mind you this is pretty much a navy shower. Water on, Rinse, water off, Soap up, Water on, Rinse again. With my shower head I can turn it down to just a slight trickle so off isn't really 100% off, but still serves the purpose.. You have to look at like this. If you have say 5-6 gallons of hot water. Your mixing that hot water with cool water. If that water is in another tank on the trailer then its probably not very cold inless its winter. So if you take a shower till you run through all your hot water your really using more like 10 gallons, maybe more depending on the temp of the cold water.. On my trailer I can carry up to 85gallon of freshwater. Most of the time we only carry 40.. With 40 gallons and a few people you will run out of water very quick if your taking 8-10 gallon showers.. With as hot as the water comes out of my heater and with it mixing with water from my holding tank. I'd bet we could run through 40 gallons in just a few showers if you just ran it the water till it went cold.
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby Mister Ed » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:26 am

thanks
im not looking to recycle any gray water only the clean and the gray for the sink dumps in a 5 gal,tank how im setup in the sink is i use 2 5gal tanks 1 clean that pumps (hand) from clean tank into the sink then in to the gray that ok
for the shower i was thinking about makeing a standalone or a box to fit on the trailer tongue and make a v type cabinet to hold a small tank next to a 5gal tank on top of that mount my heater (vent out the side or top) that way it stays setup as one unit and i can get to it as needed
to recycle cold water to heater back to cold tank would be about 10 mims or less about less time it takes to have a 1/2 cup of coffee
also a switch valve and a tee to the cold inside to the clean water side for hot water as needed
no i dont have room under the fulton i wish i did but it sits to low so thats kinder out
and the slot for the cooler i need that as well looks like some poor plaining on my part ........and yes the shower water is going on the ground (im in the woods and or way off grid) thanks Mister Ed
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby Mister Ed » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:34 am

the toilet is a standalone 5 gal unit thats part is fine i only wish it was a DEEPER i know most guy get my drift
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Re: hot water setup help

Postby Engineer Guy » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:55 am

Having mucked around with all sorts of schemes in various Houses and Trailers, I always come back to the 'Physics 101' fundamentals of this Thread question.

1. The Water volume has to be stored somewhere. Wherever that is takes up the same volume. I would tee on a 2nd small cold Water Tank if the root need is more Water on board.

2. Having seen them Worldwide during Biz Travels, I got a Demand Heater from 'Grainger' [240 VAC - 40 Amp Breaker] and installed it in one of our Houses. Worked well with some tweaking. A mandatory Gauge on the main Water Line from the Cisterns I installed allowed me to watch Shower flow precisely. With an el cheapo low flow Shower Head ['Water Pik'?] set for 'needle'-like jets of Water, our use was 3/4 Gallon/min. with a Demand Heater for a comfy Shower with Water left flowing. Flow never varied. Well Pump pressure setting at the Pressure Tank was the Factory setting of 50 PSI Pump Off - 30 PSI Pump on. The Pressure Tank internal bladder does it's job of equalizing out flow between Well Pump power cycles. I intentionally chose the largest Pressure Tank I could source locally: a 28 Gallon one. The other Pressure Tank 'half' is pressurized Air, so this Tank is just under the size of a 55 Gallon Drum. This capacity causes the Well Pump to cycle much less.

There's a small Washer included in some low flow Shower Heads. I've modified this Washer, or drilled a smaller hole in a new Washer, to get the flow rate desired.

3. I use only Ball Valves in all projects. They allow you to really tweak settings; critical to obtaining repeatable results from Demand WHs.

4. Experimentally, I would throttle down cold Water going into the Ecco and confirm what the lowest possible flow is before it shuts off. I also would dial down Ecco Water temp to the lowest setting to see what the bottom line is on Ecco flow rate and output temp.

5. We Solar types have used 'Mixing Valves' for decades on the output of Solar-heated hot Water. This mixes cold and hot Water at the WH output to prevent scalding, and ensures minimum hot water usage. You could install a Mixing Valve IF the Ecco hot water 'part' of this flow wasn't so low that the Ecco shuts off internally.

The 'new' RV thing is to crank up a standard 6 Gallon WH and use a Mixing Valve on the output. It's then marketed as having the supply capability of a ~10 Gallon WH. Heating and holding 6 Gallons of 'super' heated Water is wasteful, but that's not an issue on the Big Rigs.

6. Energy is energy. To use energy, and store that hot Water in even a super-Insulated Tank [which is how I would do it] means you're using energy amount 'x', and then wasting it while storing that Water. Or, you will have wasted energy in 'overheating' Water not used in the Shower in real time.

I'm a huge fan of measurements [Voltmeter, etc.]. I have 2 or 3 Radio Shack Indoor/Outdoor Thermometers, and use them religiously. The Outdoor Probe can monitor, say, Fridge/Cooler temp. It's also handy for measuring hot Water temp out of the Shower Head while you make adjustments. Then, if you're camping in a cold location and the Showers aren't cutting it, you can adjust the WH temp and measure/quantify what's really happening.

7. I use tricks like using a clean 1 Gallon Water jug with part of the upper side cut out [but the Jug 'Handle' left intact for carrying]. Run preheat Water into that Jug, and use it to flush the Toilet as many RVers do, or for washing Dishes, etc.. Obviously, keeping Plumbing runs short and direct helps.

8. The Shur Flo 2.8 GPM Pump is a real, freeze-proof work horse. It should be possible to adjust the Ecco to work with that Pump and get repeatable, nice Shower results. Their >5 GPM Pump is getting really bad RV Press as unreliable. Consider that 2.8 GPM is >1/2 a 5 Gallon Paint Bucket.

The 'Accumulator Tanks' linked below act identically to the mandatory Pressure Tank used on any Well-based Water System. The internal Bladder, pushing against internal Air, 'stores' pressure. More importantly, you can really dial down Water flow through the Demand Heater to the minimum allowed by WH design. Note, too, that Water in the Accumulator Tank will temper up to ambient temp, and 'pre-warm' cold Water, as you seem to want to do.

There's some nice 2 Gallon Pressure [Accumulator] Tanks at the Big Box Stores for Home Systems that would work fine in a Trailer. The Trailer Pump would run longer when on, but stay off longer once the integral Pump Pressure Switch shuts off. More importantly, these Accumulator/Pressure Tanks even out flow through the Ecco WH.

9. Some Solar folks install 'Tempering Tanks' to preheat incoming Water to room [Trailer Interior] temp. One fellow made a brilliant Tank of paralleled pieces of 4" or larger PVC Pipe. That idea could be deployed vertically or horizontally; say, under a Bench Seat, or in a Cabinet. If tempering Water up to a warmer temp passively is the intent, there are creative solutions that are not Tanks that have to consume valuable space.

10. Water will also reach ambient temp wherever you're camping. You will wind up heating Water likely warmer than what comes out of a Well anyway. Also note that Ecco, and other Demand Heaters, sometimes don't like input Water that is much above cool or cold. This is because their designs plan on adding minimum BTUs 'x' to incoming Water. I would jury rig up an Experiment first. It will answer your questions w/o guesswork.

By experimentation, I learned in my '83 Avion Trailer to put the 6 Gallon 'Atwood' WH temp setting to ~1/3rd of the way up. I listened for the WH Flame to go out, and turned off the WH. I washed Dishes first with the hotter Water, and then Showered 'Military style' using mostly hot/warm Water with very little cold Water mixed in. This saved Propane, and made cold Water temp irrelevant, since I wasn't mixing in much cold Water.

8 - 10 Gallon Showers are unthinkable to Solar and off-Grid folks [whether Boondocked Houses on 'Wheels' are involved or not]. So, that Water usage or waste is not a realistic concern in my experience [see above]. You should be able to avoid that scenario with the ideas above IF this time-tested sort of solution floats your Boat. You'll also save money, and keep Plumbing Components [and, thus, Road repairs of them] to a minimum. With a Ball Valve installed, you can dial down flow coming out of the Shur Flo Pump. This takes out of the equation the requirement to have folks manually dial down Shower Flow, or other Water usage. I'm way into foolproofing stuff. The Japanese call it 'poke yoke' ['mistake-proofing']. They use such thinking throughout their Manufacturing to the 'nth' degree.

Put a single Valve at the low point of sloped Plumbing. This makes Winterizing a cakewalk. A Hose Fitting on that Drain Valve means you could save or direct that Water.

Accumulator Tanks

Caveats ~

1. I'm on a Broadband Aircard Modem, so I can't review your Build pix w/o eating up valuable Data time.

2. I don't know the minimum flow rate on the Ecco; I haven't reviewed it for a while. If it requires several [wasteful] Gallons/min. of minimum flow to heat, then I better understand where you're coming from...
~Reality proceeds with or without your consensus~
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