The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

[Wobbly Wheels]

One of the options I am considering for the reinforcing edges of the galley walls is to laminate thin slabs of wood over a jig.

I must have missed something - why not just use hardwood edging the way you would on a table with wider stock for the curve ?
That's how it's done with ply bulkheads on boats.

You can size it to take a screw's entire length and the glue area would give a good bond to the foam, especially if also wrapped in canvas.

A thought on the hatch framing...I built my door first using thin ply as a shear web to see if it would stiffen the panel enough. Based on that, I personally would have no problems with thin ply ribs and foam laminated together within a perimeter frame of wood. As long as you get a good glue up, you can shape down the foam with a longboard till you get to the ribs. I've done plugs for glassing hull models that way: cut cross section profiles out thin ply a foam's thickness apart and start gluing it all up. Have to figure how much rib and how much foam, but as a ballpark for a 2" thick panel I would think a 1/4" rib every 8" or so would be lots.
As long as all of the profiles are lined up with each other, the panel will always fair out true. On hull models I use a dowel through to maintain a fixed line, but you have a flat side and edge that would work too.
An advantage of a 'frameless' design is that all your hardware is correspondingly lighter as well...

Haven't been posting much but I've been following your build. Your level of fab ability is a bit greek to me so it's kinda like taking a drink from a fire hydrant...
If there's half as much thought and craftsmanship in the rest of your build as in the frame, your trailer will outlast us all !

[KCStudly]

If you laminated your ribs to the curve, you could then cut a couple of 1/8" ply ribs to glue on either side of the laminated curves to add strength. Should be more than enough for a foam hatch.

Bill

That's another good idea, Bill, and I might have enough of the 5 mm ply left over to do that. In fact, I will probably have enough strips to build the curved laminate out of the ply, rather than resawing lumber. I guess if I just pick a method and start it won't seem like as much work as it sounds.

I must have missed something - why not just use hardwood edging... ? ...
You can size it to take a screw's entire length and the glue area would give a good bond to the foam, especially if also wrapped in canvas.

Thanks for the suggestion, Wobbly. All suggestions are welcome, though I'm not sure I am following you. If I get it, the thing you are missing is that I need the wall cap rails to be deep/thick enough to route the hatch seal detail into. The rail has a 520 inch radius at the top transitioning to a 103 plus some fraction of an inch radius at the back and is about 7 ft in combined arc length, so if what you picture is some sort of hardware store stock item, I don't think it's going to fit.
No need to take any screws, I expect the lower hatch strut pivot location will end up further down in the wall (still need to figure that one out), tho I will probably run a staple or two through the galley wall skins into the rails. The canvas is only going to wrap over the rail as far as the vertical surface inside of the seal, not all of the way. And the more I think about it, I will probably make it wide enough to router a rabbet into the inside face to receive the galley skin, trimming out the edge of the wall ply.

A thought on the hatch framing...I built my door first using thin ply as a shear web to see if it would stiffen the panel enough. Based on that, I personally would have no problems with thin ply ribs and foam laminated together within a perimeter frame of wood. As long as you get a good glue up, you can shape down the foam with a long board till you get to the ribs. I've done plugs for glassing hull models that way: cut cross section profiles out thin ply a foam's thickness apart and start gluing it all up...

I used the ply bulkhead/faired foam glue up technique on the cockpit pod of the RC glider I mentioned somewhere earlier. As far as doing a rib for every thickness of foam, that seems like the most work off all of theses ideas, ... but it did give me another idea to put the ribs on the top side of the skin, dividing the foam into smaller segments. The advantage to your method being that the foam would be solid without any kerf's. However, the ribs would only be 1-1/2 thk, since this is the thickness of the foam I plan to use.

Haven't been posting much but I've been following your build. Your level of fab ability is a bit Greek to me so it's kinda like taking a drink from a fire hydrant...
If there's half as much thought and craftsmanship in the rest of your build as in the frame, your trailer will outlast us all !

Yeah, lots of spewing from this end. When I worked with submarines it was very important to document everything! Kind of stuck with me. Fab Greek, or is it "Geek"? It is always interesting the slang terms that develop in the trades. Thanks for the words of support!

[Wobbly Wheels]

If I get it, the thing you are missing is that I need the wall cap rails to be deep/thick enough to route the hatch seal detail into.

I wasn't suggesting the pic was a direct option: it could be whatever thickness it would need to be.
The practical limit would be 11 1/2" wide (1X12, 2X12). Once it's glued in (like a perimeter frame), you could cut whatever radius you needed for the curve so long as it landed on the wood (same for the seal rabbet). The sample pics was of the production ones typically made from 5/4 X 6" stock. I agree that you're unlikely to find an off-the-shelf solution.

As far as cutting the ribs goes, a router with a 1" flush cutter will give you four ribs off a template. Repeat for a total of 9 ribs.
Or a single pass if you go with 1/8"

Yeah, lots of spewing from this end.

Sharing, not spewing !!
I meant it's a lot to take in because that's not my background.

[KCStudly]

It's all good Wobbly.

I think we are both thinking the same thing on the edging. I was just thinking to miter 2x6's and butt join them with biscuits, then router both the inside and outside radii, making them a little lighter than just routing the outside.

The second option being the laminated version. One of the problems I may have is no good way to do long rips. The blade guard and splitter on the table saw at work is a hideous homemade piece of junk that actually makes using the grand old cast iron saw a miserable experience; more dangerous than w/o it if you ask me. Maybe I can set up a feather board on my little wood band saw and rip some boards that way. If that works well I think the laminated method would go more quickly.

Either way, if I just start it will probably work its way out without too much trouble... I hope.

No word form Rover Mike yet. Can't wait forever. May have to take other action on wood sourcing, and soon.

[Wolffarmer]

Hey KC
I just found this on Youtube
Poet

If this is the place you are going to it is about 30+ miles from Elk City, Getting to Elk City is a chore itself. Then the fun begins. There is a road from Grangeville. Or a more adventurous one from Highway 12.

Poet Creek discription

But does sound like a nice place. As long as there are no deer/horse flies.

Randy

[KCStudly]

That's the place Randy! The first shot showing the picnic table is the campground we want. It's by itself. You can't tell from the video, but it is surrounded on two sides by Poet Creek (crick), on the third by Bargaman Creek (crick) and by the road. The other sites shown and the horse area are on a little spur at the trail head just around the corner (over by the outhouse). There's also a site to the right of the Bargaman Creek (crick) sign on the otherside of the road from our prefered site, but I don't think this is an intended spot because there is no picnic table there (or at least there wasn't 30 years ago).

I think I have actually seen that video before, and probably have it saved at home, but thanks for showing it to me again. It makes me happy.

[GPW]

"or at least there wasn't 30 years ago.”.... probably Condos there by now ....

[KCStudly]

Google it. There aren't any condos.

As Randy said, it takes a bit of effort to get there.

It is in the middle of a National Forest surrounded by national land reserves. Combined they make up one of the largest remote areas in these united states. There were some forest fires a few years back in the general region, but it's 100's of 1000's of acres and a full days ride from any civilization.

I am sooooo looking forward to kicking back in the shade with a cool mountain breeze an even colder mountain crick babbling in the back ground, sipping an adult beverage, riding in the Jeep with the doors and top off to the scenic trails and vista. Maybe dangle some of my dad's hand tied flies in the crick and fry up some rainbow trout, or stew some grouse with Bisquick dumplings in the DO.

There was a spot in a mature pine grove I'll never forget. Dad and I had just hiked along a ridge and down into a little valley where there was a bit of a bog and some cattails. We found several oval shaped "crop circles" the size of VW bugs where elk or moose had bedded down in the dry reeds the night before. From there we headed into the shade of the pine grove and when we stopped to listen and ponder, I whispered to dad, "I smell celery". We looked down and saw that we were walking between tiny little thin stalks of celery shaped stems with a lacy little green canopy about knee high growing up through the pine needle carpeted floor of the forest. Dad examined the stems and whispered to me, "Wild celery… would be good in a stew." (Sorry if I may have told this story before, it is one of my most vivid memories from that time.)

Well, I made my first sawdust on the project this evening (Huzzah!). Don't get too excited. It was just a test. I ripped a few short lengths of 2x at about 0.2, 0.13 & 0.06 thk (the later just enough to take the rounded edge off of the board). Pics later after I get home.

I added the Hatch Wall Edge Cap profile to the drawing, laid out on a grid, plus ordinal dimensions of key points. I started to lay out a mitered plank blank pattern to cover the profile, but after ripping the test slats and seeing how the different thickness bend, I am committing right here and now to doing the laminated arches.

Oh, I also made a feather board to assist with the real ripping when the time comes (soon!). Alright, gotta run home now. Pics in a little while.

[S. Heisley]

Caution, KC!
You're keeping us in suspense!
There are people on this forum that may be addicted to pics of cut wood and sawdust!!!

[KCStudly]

Here are the slats and feather board I sliced up. If you look closely you can see the sawdust on the saw table. (WooHoo!)


And some pictures of the crappy guard on the saw. The pivot bolt is too wide and low preventing the fence from being able to move closer than about 3/4 inch to the blade without bending over the splitter. The pivot bolt is loose so the guard flops from side to side getting chewed up by the blade, resulting in jagged edges on the underside that fetch up on the edge of the board when you start to push it toward the blade. The splitter itself isn't bad, but the guard is so sloppy that it tends to bend the splitter over, causing the board to bind or push harder than it should. I'll have to get this fixed before any serious work commences. I'm in good standing with the chairman of the safety committee (he is me) so I should be able to get this squared away in short order.





Missed a call from Rover Mike re: my plywood of choice. He's going to recommend 1/4 thk but I am concerned about ease of bending, plus I do not want to have to redo the model, nor fight that 1/16 difference on every little thing from here on out. I want to stick with the 5 mm.

A good friend of Karl's and mine has been restoring boats for several years and said he had a good source for all varieties of marine ply down in NY near the city. He's early to bed and I missed him this evening, but I'll take a look at his blog and see if he mentions their name. You guys think I over do the details? Take a look at 340 Searay Sundancer Restoration for a true engineering gear head boat building craftsman. This is his second.

[bonnie]

One of the options I am considering for the reinforcing edges of the galley walls is to laminate thin slabs of wood over a jig.

I must have missed something - why not just use hardwood edging the way you would on a table with wider stock for the curve ?
That's how it's done with ply bulkheads on boats.

You can size it to take a screw's entire length and the glue area would give a good bond to the foam, especially if also wrapped in canvas.

WW, where would I get such a lovely thing as that hardwood edging in say, 2.25" ?

[Wobbly Wheels]

WW, where would I get such a lovely thing as that hardwood edging in say, 2.25" ?

PM sent.

[KCStudly]

So the tightest radius the galley wall edge cap will see is 15-1/2 inch inside (17 inch outside) where the graceful 520 inch roof radius transitions into the 103-5/8 radius at the rear most arc of the hatch; and the hatch ribs will be a little deeper and tighter than that. I found an old ventilator cone in the scrap bin that was about 29 inches across (14-1/2 R) so I used that to wrap the test slats around to see if they could take the bend, The 0.20 thk was a little stiff and I could hear it starting to crack before getting there. The 0.13 thk was just about right. It made the bend easily without cracking. The little thin sliver could form a much smaller radius quite easily, but would require a whole lot more cutting and gluing, so I will stick to the 1/8 inch range. I was thinking that I would want to wrap the slats over the outside of the jig because I thought that would be easier to layup and clamp, but the outside arc of the rail is the critical dimension that must hold the profile line. Then again the inside radius can run a little wild and just get transferred to the foam, which can easily be cut to match. I would have needed to know how much thickness all of the glue layers would add, and would have needed to be fairly precise with the slat thickness.

I had been thinking that I would have to make the cap rails 1-11/16 wide (1-1/2 wall plus 3/16 inner panel) so that I could route out a rabbet for the inner panel to seat into, thus naturally trimming the end grain of the wall panel plywood. That meant that I would have had to rip a blank first, then rip the slats from the horizontal axis, rather than just using the 1-1/2 thk 2x dimension that matches the wall thickness. However, it has occurred to me that all I have to do is offset the top few layers of the lamentation to the inside, since the outside of that portion would have been trimmed away anyway for the hatch seal area. So it will complicate the glue up slightly, but will be more efficient for sawing and grain selection. A few 3/16 thk spacers between the first few laminations and the face of the jig, then let the last few laminations rest directly on the face of the jig. Then I can use the 2x nominal thickness and all I will have to do is router less wood from the seal area.

The more I think of it, the more sense it makes to clamp the slats concave into the jig (rather than convex around it) because; (1) it will hold the critical dimension better, and (2) I can use the same jig setup for both the wall caps and the hatch ribs, even though they are different depths, they have the same outside profile. Just need to add more plys for the ribs, no need to reconfigure the jig. Hmm, shouldn't be any harder to push the slats into the shape of the jig than it is to pull them around the shape, should it?

I know it's kind of hard to follow along with just words, (special eye roll just for Eagle ) so I'll make sure to show this in better detail with a sketch or pics when I get to it.

Thanks for following along.

Funny thing, when I look at the number of views on this thread, I wonder, "what percentage of them is me?".

[Wobbly Wheels]

One thing that will bite you with a concave jig is that it's a little trickier to lay up. On a convex plug, you can clamp the center, then work the clamps on outward from there, removing the next one and replacing it where the previous one was. That way, you can continue laminating while your first plies are still setting up.

With a concave mold, when you lay the next ply in, the angle gets pretty sharp because that ply is riding on the rest of the clamps rather than on the previous ply. I did a helm wheel for a boat a few years ago and tried it both ways - I'm sure there's a way to do it easily with a female mold but I haven't needed to figure one out...not yet at least.

Speaking of laminating wood: if you're looking for a ton of clamps dirt cheap, rip through one wall of a piece of PVC then buck it into short lengths. These 'slit rings' give a great clamp that epoxy doesn't stick to and they are adjusted by gap size, pipe diam and length.
How do you feel about steaming the slats ?

[KCStudly]

With a concave mold, when you lay the next ply in, the angle gets pretty sharp because that ply is riding on the rest of the clamps rather than on the previous ply.

Great insight on the clamps getting in the way more, Wobbly. I'll have to make sure I use the duck bill style clamp with a low profile over the clamping head. Suppose I could use short staples here and there to tack it together after the first couple of plys? Would maybe help hedge my bet when adjusting the clamps for the next wrap.

I did see your recommendation for the PVC clamps in another thread (at least I think it was you) and I wondered if those would have enough clamping force. Not supper easy to adjust on the fly, kind of trial and error. I can see where they would be handy for light spring clamp needs where a large throat clamp isn't needed. Maybe for skinning a wall or something, but then I figure on just using weights for that. Probably one of those things where once you have them you use them all of the time.

Thanks for the comments and support.