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Converting Cargo Trailers into TTTs

Re: mpg

Postby Mark519 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:31 am

Deryk, the 3/8" plywood interior of your trailer is part of the structure and should not be removed. This is what I was told by Lark/Trailershowroom.

I get 18-19 mpg with my 3/4 ton Dodge Diesel at 70 mph unloaded and 12-13 mpg with a 7x16 trailer. I think a Rav4 is too small to tow a 7x14 steel cargo trailer safely under all conditions. Straight line on a level dry road maybe ok but can you control it going too fast through a turn in a stop etc. I have seen a camper roll a mid size suv on a level straight road. From the skid marks it looks like he stopped hard and the camper fishtailed.
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Re: mpg

Postby Deryk the Pirate » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:25 am

So is there a difference between a CT and a travel trailer?
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Re: mpg

Postby DriverOne » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:02 am

I have to agree with the others. I'm a trucker, and I have seen more than my share of RVers who did not take heed to the control ratio, or maybe didn't consider it. I don't have pictures, but then it's not right to photograph the dead. A RAV4 should pull no more than a Scamp. It's a light duty vehicle, meant for pulling jet skis or a small utility trailer.

Consider the size of the trailer. It's larger and wider than the Toyota. Because of this alone, it will handle sluggishly. This kind of feeling is noticeable in even with Lowe's prefab utility trailers, although obviously not as much. Let's say you come up on an accident after a blind hill, and you've got to stop immediately. Yeah, you might have trailer brakes, but if the straight line momentum of the trailer exceeds the tow vehicle's ability to control it, you'll stop when and where the trailer wants you to. This includes a full-on jackknife or tow-vehicle rollover/under.

Buy the pickup, or at least a Suburban.
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Re: mpg

Postby Deryk the Pirate » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:13 am

now what if I went with a 6' wide model? Technically the Rav4 is 6' wide at its widest...I called the 800 number and in their Indiana plant they do make a 6' wide model with the V-nose and the curved roof. Wouldn't that make a big improvement with the drag problem and maintaining control of the tv?
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Re: mpg

Postby Gonefishin » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:16 pm

MPG sucks with cargo trailers. It just does. I have a 2003 F-150 with the big V-8, and it gets 16 w/o my 6X12 trailer, and 10 with it. My 2011 F-150 with the newest big v-8 gets 20 w/o the trailer, and about 12-13 towing it. I tow at high speeds mostly, 65-75 mph is the speed limit out west on most highways and interstates.

I'd NEVER dream of towing my 1,500 pound-ish 6x12 with a rav-4. Even with my 2003 V-8, its a dog, and I often can't even reach the posted crusing speed. Throw in a side wind or a head wind, and Its a tough haul. You can't have too much tow vehicle, but its very easy to have not enough. I'd want a bigger truck than I have now if my trailer was any wider or any longer.
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Re: mpg

Postby Deryk the Pirate » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:49 pm

So is there a difference between towing a CT and a similar sized Travel Trailer?

Ok maybe a 7x14 is a little big but im just haveing a hard time understanding? Is it solely the drag factor of it sticking up taller then my tv? The weight shouldnt be the issue if im more then a 1000 + pounds below max towing. Is it my vehicle not heavy enough? Im just trying to understand the point but i know other people are towing travel trailers with them and my 6.5 by 10 ft long vardo at 1700lbs i barely know its back there.
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Re: mpg

Postby bdosborn » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:10 pm

Remember you need to look at the vehicles gross weight rating too. I see a lot of people pile their cars full of camping stuff and then wonder why their mileage goes down so much when towing the little bitty teardrop. My trailer weighs around 3000 pounds and my truck weighs around 7000 pounds. I don't have to worry about the tail wagging the dog. The truck is getting old and I need to replace it. Is an 11,000 pound tow rating too much? Nope, not to me. Towing scares me and there's no way am I getting a little bitty something to tow with, I just wouldn't feel safe. BTW, my mileage goes from a 18mpg down to 16 - 12mpg pulling the Boxcar, depending how fast I go. Anything over 65 really costs me. The 4' wide teardrop didn't do anything to the mileage.

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P.S. Most new trucks have an often overlooked area rating, which is the maximum frontal area of the trailer that the truck is rated to pull. I bet its pretty small for the RAV4.
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Re: mpg

Postby Gonefishin » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:45 pm

Deryk: Its both drag factor and weight. I've never been to New Jersey, and don't know if you have any hills, mountains, or grades climb there. Out west, there isn't much flat ground, and where it is flat, the wind blows often and hard. (always seems to be a head wind too, both ways!) As speeds increase into the 60-75 mph range, the drag from the taller trailers and wider trailers becomes more of a factor. Throw in some head wind, and its like pulling a lead brick. I have a boat that rides lower and narrower than my cargo trailer, and weighs slightly more. Yet, the boat tows easier, and results in better gas mileage because of better aerodynamics behind the tow vehicle. Its heaver, but tows lighter due to less drag.

When we get to a hill, the weight becomes more of a factor. If underpowered at all, you don't' go up the hills too fast unless you suck the gas and floor the pedal, down shifted. And we have elevation too, usually between 4,000 and 8,000 feet. When I tow my boat to Florida, for example, its like its not even back there through the plains and into Florida. Piece of cake. Flat sea-level towing, 75 mph all day, and better mileage. The hilly terrain is a different ball game.

At sea level, on flat roads, at moderate speeds under 65 mph, you can probably get by with an underpowered or maxed out loaded vehicle. However, as some have said, expect shorter transmission life and more wear on your suspension system. Not sure of the mechanical "why's" of that, but have experienced it with smaller trucks with lighter suspension systems and smaller engines towing loads over the years. All the good mechanics say that too. Same with transmissions. The newer ones with coolers last a lot longer. I had to replace springs on an Explorer once after about 50,000 miles because it rode with the nose up and hitch "bottomed out" really bad due to worn out springs from 50,000 miles of towing a heavy boat. The tranny "went out" on that same Explorer at 68,000. Lesson learned.

Just balance the load as best you can, and take any extra steps you can to keep the trailer small and the tow vehicle as beefed up as you can. You will never regret keeping your tow vehicle on top of things, even if there's an initial higher up front cost or you have to go smaller with your trailer for a given vehicle. Wind drag matters. Power matters. Suspension matters. Transmission matters. All together, having plenty of tow vehicle makes a difference between a fun trip and a pain in your behind.
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Re: mpg

Postby bdosborn » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:56 pm

That's a good point. Towing in the mountains is a *lot* more challenging for both the driver and the vehicle.

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This is 11,000 ft Berthoud Pass. It got my attention, even with a 3/4 ton truck and a relatively small trailer.

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Re: mpg

Postby Deryk the Pirate » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:57 pm

That is a good point Bruce, i need to weigh my whole tv and trailer when im ready to head out for a trip and compare it to GVW listed.

Now the frontal area, i do see your point...the more windage the harder your engine is going to work (higher rpm's to get to the desired speed, engine works harder uses more fuel generates more heat). But im curious someone said earlier and provided a link to different shapes and how the drag effects it, so for example if we have 3 equal sized trailers and weigh the same and are the same height/width, with 1 flat front, the second a v front and the 3rd curved like those canned ham trailers...the 2nd and 3rd trailer should provide better fuel economy for being a little more aerodynamic correct?
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Re: mpg

Postby Gonefishin » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:14 pm

From my understanding, the shape of the nose has a minimal effect. I've towed a couple of flat-nose 6X12's short distances (50 miles or so) to compare with my 6x12 v-nose, and I didn't notice a difference. From my understanding, the shape and air flow over the rear of the trailer has much more effect on drag. Some people use "air tabs" to make the air flow smoother. Prem had a post on here a couple years ago about his results with air tabs, and it had links to other sites with statistics and physical explanations. Check out his million-post thread if you haven't already, "a 12' featherlight conversion." Its somewhere in there! http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=25377

A v nose would have a little less drag, but again, at 75 mph, it isn't that significant. They both have drag, big time.

I considered the air tabs, but in calculating the cost of them, versus the actual savings in mileage and such, it seemed like it would take me 10-15 thousand miles just to break even. I never bought them. I'd have been even, or slightly ahead by now. Maybe next time.
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Re: mpg

Postby Deryk the Pirate » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:33 pm

The airtabs arent that expensive, 54 at $2.75 each... now the nose cone looked interesting too...I saw some higher prices for tractor trailer models but the demo video with the little trailer looked interesting. I sent them an email for more info
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Re: mpg

Postby eamarquardt » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:11 am

I had to buy a new vehicle in June. I bought a Chevy Traverse rated to tow 5,400#. Driving at 65-70 w/o a trailer I get 22mpg. Towing my dump trailer (empty 2000#) I get 20mpg at 55mph. All on reasonably flat terrain. I have to think that wind resistance is far more "lethal" to fuel economy that weight is when on level ground.

So, anything you can do to minimize wind resistance will pay dividends.

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Re: mpg

Postby Shadow Catcher » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:33 am

I have an Ultraguage http://www.ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/index.htm which among many other things tells you MPG instantly and average MPG from what ever your start point. My current TV a Subaru Outback with the H6 and 212 HP gets an average of begtween20 and 23 MPG with no load and flat running. I test drove a new Subaru with the content velocity over a loop and averaged 28 MPG High way driving would be in the 30MPG range. Our decision is to start saving until we can pay cash or untill mine self destructs.
On our trip west depending on wind direction we averaged between 18 and 20 MPG. Compass Rose the last time I weighed it was 1600# (aluminum frame makes a big difference). I think one thing that would make a difference would be to find some way to fill/divert the air that gets between the TV and CR. I know one of the ways folks set the angle for a wind diverter is to look at the pattern of bug deposited on on the trailer. Increasingly I am seeing a wind diverter/skirt under semi trailers and I am fairly sure they would not be there if if they did not make a difference. Some way to fill, aerodynamically the space between the TV and trailer deserves attention.
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Re: mpg

Postby rando18 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:50 am

Deryk the Pirate wrote:now what if I went with a 6' wide model? Technically the Rav4 is 6' wide at its widest...I called the 800 number and in their Indiana plant they do make a 6' wide model with the V-nose and the curved roof. Wouldn't that make a big improvement with the drag problem and maintaining control of the tv?


It seems your dead set on pulling an enclosed trailer with a Rav4, even after all of us have
told you our experienced opionions. Let us know how it goes.
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