A toyhauler cargo conversion

Converting Cargo Trailers into TTTs

Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:16 pm

I googled "G-N "kludge" plug " just now and got no results pertaining to electrical or grounding? What is it?
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby hankaye » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:38 pm

pvangle, Howdy;

pvangel wrote:I googled "G-N "kludge" plug " just now and got no results pertaining to electrical or grounding? What is it?


I googled as well, However, I took the G-N to be Ground - Netural and the "kludge" as a seperate entity...
See defination #3. in the entry Computing Dictionary;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kluge

Hope it helps.

Mike, Howdy I'm still kinda new here and appericate the work you've done to help us understand the
mysteries of the electrons, neturons and other 'rons out there including the Mo-rons... of which I claim
full membership when it comes to electricity. :lol:

hank
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:39 am

Thanks Hank! And I agree that there is wealth of knowledge here with Mike and everybody else that is more than willing to help out! :applause:
I am having a blast building this trailer and learning along the way, just wish I had more time to work on it but looks like I might get a bunch done this weekend.
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby jmsokol » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:41 am

pvangel wrote:I googled "G-N "kludge" plug " just now and got no results pertaining to electrical or grounding? What is it?

Well, the "G-N Kludge Plug" is my own invention, so you won't find it published anywhere. However, it's a very simple concept.

First let's define what we mean when we say "ground". It's used for a lot of different electrical situations, many of which are NOT grounded. For instance, bonding (bolting) something to the frame of your RV doesn't "ground" it. Rather, it's connecting something to the common chassis of your RV which creates a local "ground plane". This "ground plane" could be "earthed" to the dirt below your feet via a ground rod, in which case its electrical potential will be very close to earth potential. But as I noted in my earlier post, there's no requirement to "earth ground" a portable generator via a ground rod. That's because most portable RV applications don't have multiple electrical branches running externally. However, when I myself use a portable generator to run a music stage (my main business) I need to earth ground it because a single mis-wired musical instrument contacting the earth could cause all other microphones and instruments to become electrified.

As you know, the Ground and Neutral buss's of your RV need to be separated. That's to prevent a low-impedance hot-skin situation if you plug into a "reverse polarity" 120-volt outlet at a campground or your house. A Reverse Polarity outlet is one that was wired with the Black (hot) and White (neutral) wired swapped. If your trailer's frame Ground is bonded (connected) to the Neutral wire, then a reverse polarity outlet will electrify the frame ground, which dangerous shock issues. For something really interesting with incorrectly wired outlets, check out my article on RPBG outlets (Reverse Polarity Bootleg Grounds) at http://www.rvdoctor.com/2001/07/friends ... -mike.html Yes, I had to make up another word since the industry doesn't seem to be aware of how this occurs.

But back to the G-N Kludge plug... Your RV is supposed to have its Ground and Neutral bonded together where it plugs into the campsite or home outlet, and all is well. But when you're running from a portable generator, the generator needs to supply this G-N connection. If you have a motorhome with a built-in genny the "transfer switch" will introduce this G-N bond when running in generator mode, but will open the G-N bond when running from shore power. However, I doubt if any of you run a transfer switch, you just plug your shore power plug into your generator. Honda (and I believe Yamaha) portable generators DO NOT have an internal G-N bond (while many contractor generators do). So if you connect your correctly unbonded G-N trailer plug into an unbonded G-N genny, then your Neutral and Ground buss in the trailer aren't tied together. Most of the time your electrical gear won't notice this UNLESS you have a charger-inverter that's checking for a correct (zero) Ground to Neutral voltage. That's why many large motorhomes will shut down their own electrical systems if you connect their shore power plug into a Honda inverter generator. Again, when your transfer switch is in "shore" mode, it's not creating the G-N bond. In that case, the dealer will wire you a special "generator plug" with the Ground and Neutral bonded together. I call that a "G-N Kludge Plug" which is just slang for a non-standard gadget. The G-N Kludge plug is nothing more than a standard NEMA5-15 Edison plug that has an internal jumper from the Ground to Neutral screws. You plug it into one of the generator outlets, and plug your shore power extension cord into the other generator outlets. It effectively creates the required G-N bond, which makes all your electronics happy. I have confirmed this with Honda technical support verbally, but being litigation minded they won't publish this information. They just say that the hookup needs to meet local electrical codes. I'll see if I can dig up and post a picture of the G-N kludge plug later today, but it's a simple thing and only really required if your trailer electronics are acting strange when plugged into your portable generator rather than home or campground power.

FYI: I just found an article I wrote about this G-N Kludge plug for Gary Bunzer "The RV Doctor" http://www.rvdoctor.com/2012/10/my-hond ... er-my.html and yes there's a picture of a G-N Kludge plug.

Does that clarify things just a bit??? :D
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby hankaye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:51 am

jmsokol, Howdy;

Thanks for 'enlightening' us to your personal language.
"Sparky speak" is not generally interpeted well by those of us
that don't play with it on a regular basis.
I for one appericiate you taking the time to explain how this
'Magical' stuff functions .....
Please, keep on commin' back.

hank
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby jmsokol » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:14 pm

hankaye wrote:jmsokol, Howdy;

Thanks for 'enlightening' us to your personal language. "Sparky speak" is not generally interpreted well by those of us that don't play with it on a regular basis. I for one appreciate you taking the time to explain how this 'Magical' stuff functions .....
Please, keep on commin' back.

hank

The sad thing is that many electricians and inspectors really don't understand the difference between earth-grounding and frame-bonding. And many of them will say the word "ground" when they really mean "bond". Grounding is now a generic electrical term that's used to describe a lot of different things, some of which have nothing to do with the "ground" at all. And I think that's the main reason why so many campground and garage outlets are mis-wired with missing safety grounds. I've been working with the RVIA, RVDA and the NFPA/NEC to help clarify the language of safety grounding as it applies to electrical appliances and RV's.

But I do have a selfish reason for snooping around on this forum. The guitarist (Karl) from my rock band some 35 years ago is now talented cabinet maker and plumbing contractor. And he wants to build his own teardrop trailer from scratch. The deal is that I'll help him design and wire his teardrop trailer, and in return he'll help me build a living quarters and mobile office for my Sprinter van. I think it's a great trade considering we'll also get to play some great music together and drink a few beers. :applause:

I've already turned him onto this forum for reference and we'll detail what we come up with for both projects. :D
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:34 pm

I certainly understand it better now, one of my projects this weekend is to weld a bonding(not ground as I had said before) bolt to the frame in the electrical cabinet.

This is a great, I appreciate the input!

Now I'm going to cut in that window! Pics to follow....
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby jmsokol » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:17 pm

pvangel wrote:I certainly understand it better now, one of my projects this weekend is to weld a bonding(not ground as I had said before) bolt to the frame in the electrical cabinet.
Hey, we can still call it a "frame-ground" bolt as long as everyone understands it's not an "earthing ground". :lol:

The idea is to get everyone to know the distinction between frame-grounds and earth-grounds".

Oh.... one more thing. The earth itself really isn't a great ground since a ground-rod will typically have an impedance of 25 to 100 ohms and still considered to be safe. The safety-ground wire in a properly wired electrical system is an artificial "ground-plane" created at the electrical service panel's entrance where the Neutral buss, Safety-Ground buss, and Earthed Ground-Rod all come together. The earthing-ground rod is mainly a lightning safety thing. This bonding point in the main panel is the return current path required to trip a circuit breaker when an appliance shorts out internally to its own chassis. This is also why driving a ground-rod next to your RV instead of running a proper "safety-ground" wire all the way back to the service panel doesn't really "ground" your trailer. Any campground that uses ground-stakes next to each pedestal rather than running new safety-ground wires back to the main entrance panel is in violation of every electrical code I can think of.

However, I notice that many of you do include GFCI breakers in your trailer electrical system. This is an excellent way to prevent electrocution and most likely required by local code for any trailer build you do. Note that a GFCI really doesn't need an earth-ground or safety-ground to work at all, since it's looking for current imbalance between the hot and neutral conductors. See http://www.noshockzone.org/rv-electrica ... viii-gfci/ for a simple article I wrote about GFCI theory and http://www.noshockzone.org/rv-electrica ... eshooting/ for another one on GFCI false tripping.

Have fun with your builds....
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby hankaye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:56 pm

jmsokol, Howdy;

I'm thinkin' (trouble for me), when folks that have an "expertise"
about any sort of technical sort of material, they sometimes have
a difficult time 'dumbing down' their normal techno-speak that they
still leave folks that are trying to understand what it is they are to
trying to express that they leave the listeners in the dust...
So far you're doing OK, I'm only scratchin' my head a little bit... :thinking:
I'd just like to ask you to remember that some of us (me in particular),
have zero working knowledge of the 'Sparky Stuff' ...

Thanks;

hank
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby jmsokol » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:21 pm

hankaye wrote:
I'd just like to ask you to remember that some of us (me in particular),
have zero working knowledge of the 'Sparky Stuff' ...
hank

Yup... I do understand. I make my living as a technology instructor teaching non-technical people really technical stuff See http://www.howtosound.com for an example. Most people seem to think that electricity is this mysterious invisible force they can't possibly understand. But we do live in an age where we're surrounded by the stuff, so I'm always searching for practical ways to teach electricity that doesn't require a lot of math or years of study. I promise no "techno-babble"... just easy to understand words and concepts.

But everything that I write about has been vetted by a number of my EE and Master Electrician buddies, so I'm pretty sure this is how it's all supposed to work. And I have indeed set up portable test gear that allows me to electrify things like guitars and RV trailers, then demonstrate how to detect and eliminate shock hazards.

But it all starts with proper safety-grounds on electrical equipment and trailers, and that's what I'm most interested in.
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby hankaye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:56 pm
jmsokol, Howdy;

I'm thinkin' (trouble for me), when folks that have an "expertise"
about any sort of technical sort of material, they sometimes have
a difficult time 'dumbing down' their normal techno-speak that they
still leave folks that are trying to understand what it is they are to
trying to express that they leave the listeners in the dust...

^^^ What he said^^^^
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:15 pm

So even though I thought I would be home all day to work on the trailer I had to actually "work" at my job till 1...I'm not complaining just stating the facts.

Did the window first, 36x22 egress window, layed it out inside and out,

Image

Image

Image

I measured twice and cut once,

Image

Shoulda measured 3 times because the opening was a little big, It is in and ok but not real happy with my install.....

Image

Image

Window is alright but would have preferred a little more meat behind the flange and the screws I got were fine thread and kept stripping as I installed them.
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby pvangel » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:37 pm

I was cutting the opening with a jig saw but when I got to the supports I switched to a Sawzall with a brand new blade and cut through 3 of the four support beams but on the last one the saw caught and kicked back hitting me between the top of my ribs knocking me back while standing on a ladder and knocking the wind out of me...still hurts!

I did put would blocking between the cut metal studs and PL 400 everything together and will PL the plywood on around that area as well as add some screws to stiffen that wall. thought about welding some 1" angle between the studs but think the plywood and my blocking will be fine.

I did work into dark pulling all the wires into the right spots so I can insulate the ceiling and hopefully install some of the finished ceiling tomorrow.

Image

I did get the lights today for the ceiling as well,

Image

So I have wires in place for,
4 ceiling lights
2 lights in upper cabinets(maybe 4 but the wire is there)
Fantastic fan
110 for outlet outside passenger side.
Speaker wire to the upper cabinets as well but don't think I will use them, and no tv wire anywhere.
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby hankaye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:05 pm

pvangel, Howdy;

DANG HOSS!!! Great pix.!
You been movin' right along...

Like a Toothy fur bering crittter that lives
in the ponds it creates ... :applause:

Keep those crads an letters commin' ...
and plenty of pix of your efforts.

How did you figure the radius for the corners ?????
Is there a template that comes with the windows???

hank
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Re: A toyhauler cargo conversion

Postby cpinetree » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:11 pm

Here is a link to many common generators from Generlink (they make a transfer switch for homes) : http://www.generlink.com/CompatibleGenerator.pdf

Not all of the information in the chart is useful or even pertinent to trailer generators, but it is one of the few comprehensive lists of generators that I have come across that shows whether or not the neutral is floating or bonded. You can always research your generators manufacturers website to find the details but this list covers most.

The last line in each row shows if the neutral + ground are internally bonded or floating for the particular generator.

The information disseminated by jmsokol is very important to take head to!!!! :thumbsup:
and as said earlier ALWAYS bond your trailers frame to the 110v system!!!
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