New Winter Project (I hope)

[FoamHome]

Hi All, I posted this as my first post in the newbies section, but I really feel like I belong over here.

My name is Rob and I have been lurking for too long. After many years of happily tent camping my beautiful wife has decided that a) it is too cold to camp in the spring and fall where we live (reasonable) and b.) we really enjoy having a bed under us vs. camp mats, and c.) the children will perish if they experience the (somewhat enjoyable ) experience of waking up cold in a sleeping bag under the stars. To be fair they are only 4 and 1 yrs old so she makes some valid points. Add to that my summertime gig is all engrossing and allows minimal time at home to gather camping gear and such for a quick overnighter to our local favorite spot and you have a recipe for some kind of mobile, tent-like, camping-type, leave-it-packed-and-hitch-up type of vehicle. Off to the Interweb! And what is this? a teardrop? hmm kind of small, towable by her suv, maybe if I could do a bunk bed... there's one, a little tweak here, I love the kitchen outside aspect, wonder about a heater... hmm foam? Yes Foam!

Its been about two months since finding the idea of building a tear... spent gathering (stealing) information from you fine people and...

Time to jump in feet first and get another Tear on the road. I recently picked up my donor trailer, a '77 Coleman Valley Forge tent trailer that had succumbed to an invasion of critters which left it unusable and very very stinky. This morning I tore it down to the frame rails to see what I have, saving whatever hard parts seemed reusable and gaining for the princely sum of $200

1. a frame (unregistered...hmm going to have to do some "creative registration"),
2. a stainless sink and electric pump (may or may not use, I was thinking hand pump),
3. a water tank
4. a propane heater (did I mention the wife gets cold? I'm not sure if its worth installing since you guys all seem nice an cozy but we do live in the mountains, camp at 7000ft and it gets down into the teens in the fall. 6 degrees and sunny this morning)
5. a propane cooktop (I like my old trusty camp stove though... hmm)
6. a variety of aluminum trim and molding in lots of shapes and sizes that may be able to be re-purposed to some use?

THE PLAN:
(such as it is)

I am a make a general plan, get going, see what falls into place and fix it on the fly kind of guy. I have a history of building homes and remodeling other peoples problems. I'm pretty handy, but this project is going to take me into some places I've not traveled. And hopefully when its done we'll go to some other places I've not traveled.

I am going to build something similar to Camp Inn's new design, to fit two adults, two littles with a full bed mounted transverse to the axle and two 28"w bunks. I intend to halve the queen bed down the middle long ways to create a fold up couch pushed against the front of the interior. Also the top bunk will hinge (somehow) down from the rear bulkhead wall to create a rear couch. This will also allow for ease of entry and stuff packability when the rig is not in sleeper mode. Also allows for some interior card playing space if it were to someday precipitate again in California. (We just recently got our biggest snow storm in 13 months weighing in at a whopping 10 inches. We usually get snowstorms measured in feet ie 3-4.)

The construction method is to be Foamie, maybe modified Foamie with a bit more framing to support the potential snow loads. I'm thinking insulated torsion box, foam walls and roof, home built windows and doors only because I want the shapes to match the profile of the rig. Speaking of profile, excuse my sketchup design flaws, I am learning as I go here. I need to figure out how to post the sketchup image when I'm done rambling on.... (good name for the tear?)

Hopefully you all will chime in with your suggestions as I move through this project at lightning speed did I mention I have two little kids that I am in charge of 4 days a week (wife is at work) and I do home remodels as well? If I can finish this by june I'll be stoked. (as will the wifey).

Thanks to all of you for bringing me this far, I hope my build thread will do the same for some other builders out there.

Rob

[KCStudly]

Welcome to the Foamie side of things.

Looks like you have a great start and have done the right thing by studying and planning before jumping in. I think "Rambling On", "The Rambler" or just "Rambler" are great names for a RD (raindrop).

I also appreciate your very enthusiastic and articulate writing style, and am looking forward to following along.

Have you decided if you are going to do a hard or fabric skinned interior?

I like the idea of the "cabin car" seating, but I wonder if having the main bed tumbling up in the front will mean that head room requirements in the seated position will give up too much interior cabinet space; or is that a credenza style cabinet I see peeking out of the rounded front section of the cabin?

Do you plan on raising the seat section of the bed/sofa up over storage so that it is up off of the floor a bit? A couple of drawers or just open space under would be good for storing camp chairs, shoe storage, canopy tarps, etc. (even if it is just 6-8 inches or so); and you could support the rear of the bed with rails along the walls, or with fixed drop legs. In the sofa position you could put some spacer blocks on the floor to raise the "front" edge of the seat up a bit for a slightly canted (more comfortable) seated position.

This is going to be good!

[Mary C]

Welcome to the foamie section, I know you will find that everyone here will give you lots and lots of suggestions and the discussions can be well.........idea changing and usually for the better. Our Idea of building a Foamie came from building thrifty, keeping that in mind as a basis several things have come of it, I now say it is thrifty light weight and easy to build. You can do all sorts of other things to make it like you want it . I added three 1 x 4 frames inside, the first and second is there to possibly hold some type of roof mount for my future boat and give hard points for whatever I want.. the third one was to stabilize the hatch. I am still learning and still building. My suggestion is build a mock up with cardboard (furniture store or appliance store ) I used the floor and the two 2 inch foam to decide exactly what was possible. I think that by doing that I knew that I needed to change different things. Since I have spent 6 nights inside I know I need some air flow so as I build my Wiley windows I am also planning to build what I will call a fan window an alternate window that will have a fan in to move air. You will learn what you need and want as you go ahead and follow the plan but leave room to explore other ideas.

I like your plan, You can do it!!!!!!!

Mary C.

[FoamHome]

thanks KC and Mary, I appreciate any input as I go through this process. And it is going to be a process. I am leaving some things to decide as I go, like the bed height. Ideally the front bed would be raised off the floor, even if it only a few inches, maybe I can drop the floor under the bed to make it a more usable height. The cabinet in the front is a credenza style, with windows above. I haven't figured out how do to the windows in the front curve on sketchup. The bed would lean up against it when in "sofa mode"

Mary, I was expecting to mount some hardpoints in the roof as well to carry loads, I wasn't thinking about the framing supporting the hatch section... hmmm. Do you guys think I need a box frame to add rigidity? I was thinking a 2x glued into the trailing edge of the roof and a mating 2X glued into the leading edge of the hatch. My minds eye engineering says this would be enough, especially sitting on top of the bulkhead support and carrying the horizontal shear from the roof panel.

I just picked up my Pink XPS stuff today, for anyone starting this process in Northern Reno this stuff is hard to find! Apparently Big Orange is discontinuing it on their shelves, Big Blue doesn't carry anything but EPS and ISO and the local building suppliers tried to sell me a 1"X2x8 sheet at $48 a sheet Everyone seems to be switching over to the ISO and an aluminum backed EPS. I cleaned out the only HD in Reno (there are 4) with 1" still in stock. There is some 3/4 and 1/2 inch out there but getting tough to source. Future builders may have to rely on the ISO, I can walk down the street and get that no problem.

Mary, I have seen the Wiley window mentioned a few times on the forum but I haven't seen a picture/ diagram... any idea where one can be found?

Hey I'd love to keep Ramblin' On but I need to go put a floor on this teardrop
Check in later
Rob

[Wolffarmer]

Hey Rob. Welcome to the forum and the foamy side of things

Just happen to be looking at the Wiley Window thread.

Winders

Randy

[Mary C]

Wow Boy HD will really be amiss when I go show off my TD made from parts and pieces construction material from them and they cant get the 2" boy that is going to be a problem. a Far worse problem for the foamies!!!! Check out the Grits build, you can see where I put in the 1 x 4 s. It is what I had and I didn't want to cut them down. I probably over built but not for me. My hatch ended up weighing more than I had planned but .........I am glad I had the 1 x 4s. You will do fine but remember with foam if you build anything you have to engineer the hard points and the weight transferring and the sturdiness of it. You will do fine,

Mary C.

[GPW]

Rob , as one who has built a rounded front on a trailer , that and the continuous roll of the roof should form a very Rigid structure by itself ..Once you add ”structure”(shelves,bed,walls,etc.) inside , you stiffen the whole unit . The question is, how STRONG do you need it to be ... ? Once you have a rigid cabin that’s safe and safe towing , everything else is “overbuilding “

Looking Good so far ... maybe a bit heavy at the rear eh ? Just a thought ...

[atahoekid]

Hey Rob, glad to see that you found some foam in Reno? Did they say they were discontinuing it or were they just down to a few sheets? The HD on Virginia, which is where I bought mine got down to no 2", I was about to panic when I went back a couple weeks later and found they had restocked it.

[GPW]

Just like to mention you can find the correct foam CHEAPER , but not at HD or L’s ... A small insulation supplier here beat the per sheet price by almost ten bucks each over the price at the Box store... Another example how the Box stores are NOT cheaper ... It pays to shop around ...

[FoamHome]

Hi all,
Mel - HD in our area is discontinuing it, no more, nada. Lowes didn't have any options in the XPS type. I found the 1 inch out in Spanish springs, I'll be doing glue ups but given my compound curves in my desired profile I think that may be a good thing. I called a few suppliers I thought might have insulation in the area and the only pink/blue foam they could get me was 2x8 sheets, I'm thinking the super high density stuff which would explain the crazy pricing.

GPW at least because it was being discontinued I got CLEARANCE PRICING! Thrifty... (I have read at least 300 pages of the thrifty thread). Too bad they didn't have 2", all sheets as all dimensions were $12.98, ie 1/2 inch was the same price as 1". I just grabbed everything and figured if I have enough there should be a black market coming to our area for this stuff . Really, I wasn't sure exactly how it was going to go together so I didn't want to be caught short. I can always find another use for it, maybe build #2?

Progress... not so much.

Well, I was hot on the way to installing the floor when... something made me rethink the weight distribution with the stock axle location. Specifically, when I stepped on the tail of the trailer without the jacks down the tongue went flying up! I knew I was pushing to the higher limit of the axle placement rules, I was hoping moving the axle wasn't going to be necessary, but given the light planned body weight I think I may be in trouble.

I have a question about using Angibs spreadsheet When I input the body length (A) as the frame dimension, ie where the steel frame ends and therefore most of the weight, my tongue weights are really low (5%). If I enter the full length of the profile I get the tongue weights up to an acceptable level, about 15% @1000 lbs or 13% @600lbs. I hope the finished rig will be somewhere between the two numbers, either are acceptable. So, although the skin is lightweight, it should be evenly distributed since it is all lightweight right? The problem with Angibs formula as I see it is that the weight of the body extended over the front of the square frame is negligible right? There is virtually no extra weight added by extending the body forward even all the way up to the hitch. What does change is the furnishings... bed, cabinetry, storage... adding the twenty inches of overhang cause the numbers to change dramatically in the formula. I think I need to use the frame dimension as gospel and fudge a little for the furnishings... still leaves me with moving the axle.

I think the weight of furnishings in front, bed framing, front cabinet and bedding will offset the weight of the galley minus the full cooler and plates etc. Not too much Cast although I do live by my 12" skillet. SO if I assume the weight of the trailer as a whole will be nearly balanced (5%) Tongue Weight, it is really the packing that is going to determine the TW right? So is that ok? or should I move the axle? I await your more experienced opinions.

BTW I have a cracker box welder, my welds are ugly but seem to hold up. This is a pretty important weld point though....

[FoamHome]

Well it is raining steady here at 6100ft, we'll take any moisture and hopefully we'll pile on some snow up high on the mountain. With the little one napping its a good time to stay out of the garage (under his bed) so I re-drew the sketchup, got real dimensions from the cleaned up frame. I stretched the top up a bit, moved the lower rear bunk on to the top of the front cabinet to get a storage area under the main bed. I decided after laying down on the frame that it was really too tight to turn the bed perpendicular. In this design we lose the double couch scenario (bummer) but gain a second door (not drawn yet), a queen bed vs full as well as a 10" place either side to sit down on the edge before hitting the bedding with dirty feet. (did I mention the two little dirt magnets we have?) I'll have storage cabinets on either side of the rear bunk for shoes under and clothes upper. This may allow my water tank to move up over the wheel-well which I like because it is a dynamic load so it won't affect Tongue weight if it is full or empty.

Does anyone have an opinion about the floor insulation? I wasn't going to use the old plywood floor from the tent camper but its hard to pass up a paid for one piece 9X7 x5/8 piece of OSB. I hit the bottom with the mix and painted the top to seal in any yucky stuff that may be lingering. I live in a cold area, camp at 6500 ft and want the rig to be warm. I would never not insulate my homes but since the space is so small I am wondering if it is necessary to build in that 3/4 inch of insulation on top of the 5/8 osb.

Thanks again for all the help as I try to get this thing moving. It may take longer to build this than it did to build my house
Rob

[atahoekid]

Hey Rob,

Damn, no more foam in Reno.... Did you try any of the roofing suppliers? This could be bad news if I decide to do another.

I did the same thing with 10" of clearance beside the queen bed and it is really nice to have a footwell. I might have gone a little wider, knowing what I know now, since turning the foot is kinda awkward, but you gotta balance that against cantilevering the weight over the edge of the frame. The storage areas underneath are great for keeping all the camping gear stowed.

As far as axle position, I moved mine back a few inches from the original location on the pop up trailer frame. I forget what the rule of thumb was for axle location, but I used that. There were too many unknowns and variables as I tried calculating it, so I used the rule of thumb for a "heavy galley" and it's been just fine. The trailer tows like it isn't even there, even in heavy winds along 395 (I-580).

[Wolffarmer]

WE got some snow here yesterday, warmed up a bit today and has been a light rain most of the day. Drought is not over yet by a long shot. We really need snow in the mountains.

Randy

[working on it]

...Well, I was hot on the way to installing the floor when... something made me rethink the weight distribution with the stock axle location. Specifically, when I stepped on the tail of the trailer without the jacks down the tongue went flying up! I knew I was pushing to the higher limit of the axle placement rules, I was hoping moving the axle wasn't going to be necessary, but given the light planned body weight I think I may be in trouble.
I have a question about using Angibs spreadsheet When I input the body length (A) as the frame dimension, ie where the steel frame ends and therefore most of the weight, my tongue weights are really low (5%). If I enter the full length of the profile I get the tongue weights up to an acceptable level, about 15% @1000 lbs or 13% @600lbs. I hope the finished rig will be somewhere between the two numbers, either are acceptable. So, although the skin is lightweight, it should be evenly distributed since it is all lightweight right? The problem with Angibs formula as I see it is that the weight of the body extended over the front of the square frame is negligible right? There is virtually no extra weight added by extending the body forward even all the way up to the hitch. What does change is the furnishings... bed, cabinetry, storage... adding the twenty inches of overhang cause the numbers to change dramatically in the formula. I think I need to use the frame dimension as gospel and fudge a little for the furnishings... still leaves me with moving the axle.

I think the weight of furnishings in front, bed framing, front cabinet and bedding will offset the weight of the galley minus the full cooler and plates etc. Not too much Cast although I do live by my 12" skillet. SO if I assume the weight of the trailer as a whole will be nearly balanced (5%) Tongue Weight, it is really the packing that is going to determine the TW right? So is that ok? or should I move the axle? I await your more experienced opinions.

BTW I have a cracker box welder, my welds are ugly but seem to hold up. This is a pretty important weld point though....

My trailer build absolutely revolved about the use of/dependency on Angib's Trailer Balance Spreadsheet. I planned every build move, change, modification on what the spreadsheet told me. Granted, I greatly expanded the basic sheet, adding 30 more items (distance/weight) on the basic format, but kept the formulae intact. It served me well. In fact, when I went over my final version of the spreadsheet, after actually weighing items I had previously estimated, I came within a coupla lbs. of what the sheet told me (I had a few wild guesses before, and the spreadsheet likes accuracy!, so be accurate...). My basic trailer started out only 60" long, with the standard axle placement. I added 36" to make my frame 96" long, to start the build. I had vision of an equipment-heavy rear galley/storage area, necessitating extra room there, so the frame underneath the rear had to be extended more than I extended the front (24" rear/12"front). This put the already welded-in-place spring axle farther forward than ideal. Angib's balance sheet provided me with the data I needed to get my tongue weight to total weight ratio in the ballpark, rather than have to move my axle. It has been pointed out to me that I have the axle too far forward, but I knew that, and also figured just how much forward weight was needed to make it work. An out-of-the-box design that works and rides well, despite being too heavy. Angib's balance sheet told me how to "pack" it to make it work.

balance latest changes 1-12-14.xlsx

(72.25 KiB) Downloaded 61 times

balance latest changes 1-12-14.pdf

(460.23 KiB) Downloaded 99 times

[Mary C]

As to balancing you trailer, if you plan to have a box on the front fill it with what you think or just weigh it out full bottle of propane, a battery , converter , ect. then weigh all you plan to put in the back I just put all the kitchen stuff in a box then filled up a cooler with water and weighed it then my little table and chair in then I weighed a basket of clothes and my easy up, the mattress and a bunch of other stuff and then I set the stuff in different configurations till the front came off the ground then I started shifting stuff around till I could lift the front with a little exerting strength from me, a 64 year old lady. I will get the true measure later on when I get the front box built and the other stuff mounted, but that does give me an idea of where to put everything, The experimenting helps with the placement of the spare tire and other things. I also learned that the trailer can get very heavy very quickly when adding the stuff. It is amazing how much that Iron DO weighs and the frying pan and the spare tire and the 5 gallons of water and a full iced down ice chest, and all the cooking things we use including that bottle of oil, the cans of food and other kitchen things. If I add something to my camping list I carefully decide where I want to put it / mount it. Just some thoughts to consider!!!

Mary C.