Norcold 3way fridge

[atkryder]

Len
Thanks for your professional input!
Do you have any pics of a small 3way fridge that is set up to be a free standing unit?




Seth

[len19070]

I don't have a photo of one at the moment.

But I have an old Ref in the shop, a big one that I can rig a cardboard schroud around for a Photo. The theory is the same on a small one.

BTW, DON'T use Cardboard.

Happy Trails

Len

[eamarquardt]

Yup, when I said "blind" I meant the reefer would be installed in a box without "normal" ventilation.

Re: carbon monoxide-the reefer enclosure will be separated from the sleeping compartment by a storage space. Thus there will be two virtually air tight bulkheads (excuse the Marine vernacular as I are one and also owned a sloop and if I win my lawsuit against AT&T and get punitive damages I may buy another one (or even if I don't win if may buy another if my wife provokes me as I'm managing my "disease better" and could probably take care of it with a little help, I digress) between any combustion gases and the sleeping compartment. I can't forsee compustion products getting into the sleeping compartment under any circumstances.

Re: dangerous-propane explodes under the right conditions, so make sure you don't have the "right conditions". The big issue in a blind installation is getting rid of the hot air at the top of the system some how using ductwork to the outside. The bottom of the reefer will still be easy to vent. So you make sure the bottom of the system is wide open, well ventilated, etc. to the bottom of the tear. Propane is heavier than air and will decend out this opening and disapate. If the bottom of the reefer is open and well ventiated there is nothing different about a blind installation than a conventional installation. We had a propane oven and range in our boat for years and never had a problem even though the bottom of the boat was air (and water) tight! Using propane in a tear is a whole lot safer than in an air and water tight boat!

Re: impractical-I disagree. I have made a mock up of the profile of my tear (see album) and the only concession was to make the back of the tear a little more squared off than might otherwise be required. Using a couple of inexpensive fans and snap thermostats you can have a fully redundant system to vent the hot gasses at the top of the coils. Current draw of the fans is minimal compared to the other loads people demand of their batteries.

Re: maintenance-I disagree. I haven't seen any "conventional" installations where the reefer doesn't have to be removed for servicing. The items that might require service are on the top and at the back of my unit. Virtually any installation will require the unit to be removed from it's enclosure, so a "blind" installation isn't any different than a conventional installation.

Re: placing the unit in the TV. Running the unit on propane in the TV could get verrrry exciting (if you have a leak and then an exposion) or very dull (if the combustion gases poison you and put your "lights out") so I can't recommend that idea. Norcold says unit works at 100% on propane or A/C in regards to max cooling. Running it on DC is intended to only maintain the "status quo" not really cool things down. So keeping it in the TV on DC could work but it would be dumping about 250 watts or so of heat into the TV. I wouldn't think that would be an issue in cooler weather or if the vehicle has A/C

The neat things about building your own is gettin what you want. I think moving a loaded reefer around would be more of a pain than doing a one time install. Having done a fair amout of crusing in my boat, I really missed refridgeration and enjoyed a good oven and plan to have both built into my tear. I agree that you can't do the installations "half aXXed" or you might nominate yourself for a Darwin Award (to be awarded posthumously).

After reading the comments, I think I'll contact Norcold again and see about optimizing the ductwork or do some more testing. I got a really neat Fluke digital temp meter for a buck at a garage sale and a lifetime supply of thermocouple wire at a junk yard for $5. I can install the reefer and moniter the temps and see "what's cooking".

There you have it: The world according to Gus. Rebuttals welcome as we might learn something!

Cheers,

Gus

[len19070]

Yup, when I said "blind" I meant the reefer would be installed in a box without "normal" ventilation.

Re: carbon monoxide-the reefer enclosure will be separated from the sleeping compartment by a storage space. Thus there will be two virtually air tight bulkheads (excuse the Marine vernacular as I are one and also owned a sloop and if I win my lawsuit against AT&T and get punitive damages I may buy another one (or even if I don't win if may buy another if my wife provokes me as I'm managing my "disease better" and could probably take care of it with a little help, I digress) between any combustion gases and the sleeping compartment. I can't forsee compustion products getting into the sleeping compartment under any circumstances.

Re: dangerous-propane explodes under the right conditions, so make sure you don't have the "right conditions". The big issue in a blind installation is getting rid of the hot air at the top of the system some how using ductwork to the outside. The bottom of the reefer will still be easy to vent. So you make sure the bottom of the system is wide open, well ventilated, etc. to the bottom of the tear. Propane is heavier than air and will decend out this opening and disapate. If the bottom of the reefer is open and well ventiated there is nothing different about a blind installation than a conventional installation. We had a propane oven and range in our boat for years and never had a problem even though the bottom of the boat was air (and water) tight! Using propane in a tear is a whole lot safer than in an air and water tight boat!

Re: impractical-I disagree. I have made a mock up of the profile of my tear (see album) and the only concession was to make the back of the tear a little more squared off than might otherwise be required. Using a couple of inexpensive fans and snap thermostats you can have a fully redundant system to vent the hot gasses at the top of the coils. Current draw of the fans is minimal compared to the other loads people demand of their batteries.

Re: maintenance-I disagree. I haven't seen any "conventional" installations where the reefer doesn't have to be removed for servicing. The items that might require service are on the top and at the back of my unit. Virtually any installation will require the unit to be removed from it's enclosure, so a "blind" installation isn't any different than a conventional installation.

Re: placing the unit in the TV. Running the unit on propane in the TV could get verrrry exciting (if you have a leak and then an exposion) or very dull (if the combustion gases poison you and put your "lights out") so I can't recommend that idea. Norcold says unit works at 100% on propane or A/C in regards to max cooling. Running it on DC is intended to only maintain the "status quo" not really cool things down. So keeping it in the TV on DC could work but it would be dumping about 250 watts or so of heat into the TV. I wouldn't think that would be an issue in cooler weather or if the vehicle has A/C

The neat things about building your own is gettin what you want. I think moving a loaded reefer around would be more of a pain than doing a one time install. Having done a fair amout of crusing in my boat, I really missed refridgeration and enjoyed a good oven and plan to have both built into my tear. I agree that you can't do the installations "half aXXed" or you might nominate yourself for a Darwin Award (to be awarded posthumously).

After reading the comments, I think I'll contact Norcold again and see about optimizing the ductwork or do some more testing. I got a really neat Fluke digital temp meter for a buck at a garage sale and a lifetime supply of thermocouple wire at a junk yard for $5. I can install the reefer and moniter the temps and see "what's cooking".

There you have it: The world according to Gus. Rebuttals welcome as we might learn something!

Cheers,

Gus

Carbon Dioxide is dangerous...often fatal.

Fire is dangerous...often Fatal.

Propane going BOOM is dangerous...often Fatal

Go ahead, talk to Norcold...I'll bet they can give lots of advice on the many Ref's they have installed in Teardrops. What makes you think there going to give you the proper way to install a Ref in a Tear. I'll bet they won't even know what your talking about! Let alone give good advice over the phone.

I get BAD advice from these guys every day.

This Crap is DANGEROUS.

This is not a game, nor is it anything a Novice should be messing around with.

If you want to sleep in a box that could go up in flames, explode or suffocate you be my guest.

I have, in my professional opinion (33 years experience, RVIA Master Certified Tech, Built over 50 Trailers, Restored another 50) Stated the facts.

Do what you want, my conscious is clear.



Happy Trails

Len

[eamarquardt]

Dear Len,

I appreciate the "voice of experience" but I have some experience also.

re: Carbon Dioxide is dangerous...often fatal. You are barking up the wrong tree. Fact: CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) is toxic and the body knows that and will warn you well in advance of a C02 build up!!! You cannot ignore a CO2 buildup unless you are dead first! CO (Carbon Monoxide) is dangerous AND insidious and can kill you without your knowing there is a problem. As I said there will be two air tight bulkheads (with 18" between them) between the compustion products and the sleeping quarters. How's the CO (or whatever) going to get past them? The combustion products will be vented outside just as in a conventional installation, period. My installation (as far as toxic gases are concerned) will be no different than someone using a burner in the galley of a conventional teardrop while someone is asleep in the cabin. An easily purchased home CO monitor (no one makes home CO2 monitors because there isn't any need for them) installed in the sleeping quarters would give you just as much protection as you have at home (IF you have a CO monitor installed which is unlikely because most people don't understand the difference between CO and smoke!). If you are really worried buy two, or three!

re: fire is dangerous. If I read you right, there is no way to install one of these units safely. Given our ligitious society, if that were true the makers of gas powered refeers would have been sued out of business long ago.

re: Propane going BOOM is dangerous...often Fatal . Yes, that's why you have to allow it an escape path, have flame out safety valves, and pay attention to detail. I'd rather use propane as a fuel on a boat (for cooking not propulsion or refrigeration) than have a gasoline engine installed (diesels are MUCH safer).

Fact: Propane is being safely used in millions of homes, boats and rvs. Yes there are occasional failures and injury up to and including death), but nothing in life is risk free. Fact: Being a Marine in IRAQ (my son is there now) is dangerous, but the Marines lose more Marines to off duty motorcycle accidents than to combat. So if you don't feel safe in my tear, join the Marines and go to Iraq.

I agree that some of the things I read on this forum are scary! Removing GFIs because your tool keeps tripping them is my favorite candidate for a "Darwin Award". I have been an engineer my entire career around machines and equipment that will kill you in the blink of an eye if you don't pay attention. Propane is no different.

Perhaps the gentleman that started this string shouldn't install his as he apparently doesn't understand all of the issues involved. If he wants to sell it, I'll buy it! With proper precautions, it can be done. I'm betting my life (as I did on my ability to land a jet or pull one of the ejection handles if something went wrong or go out sailing and return to shore when the winds grew to gale force).

If he wants to sell it, I'll buy it!

I agree we disagree.

Cheers,

Gus

[len19070]

I won't be sucked into this


This stuff is Dangerous and should not be undertaken by a Novice.

I'm done with this thread.

Seth, I'll PM you the photos I promised.


Happy Trails

Len

[chorizon]

Chill..out. Literally...

[eamarquardt]

Done, ha. Read the current thread on GFIs. I find it more scary than propane powered reefers in a tear.

Cheers,

Gus

[atkryder]

Thanks everyone for the input you opinions and ideas are greatly appreciated! I am defiantly a novice at building campers an especially a novice at installing 3 way fridges! I am a electrician by trade not a carpenter so i will be asking alot of questions! Bieng the novice that i am i think that will stick with the free standing method!!!

Thanks
Seth

[eamarquardt]

Your plan seems right for you. Personally, I think anyone that uses an unvented heater (catalytic or otherwise) in a tear is BEGGING for a Darwin award. See current threads. Combustion products belong OUTSIDE.

Cheers,

Gus