CNC Build: The Bed and Breakfast at 4 years and 40,000 miles

[KCStudly]

Maybe switch to the trim seal with the bulb on the side of the channel and make the seal flange like an inner fixed skin with rounded inside corners. The hatch "window opening" /seal frame could be cut out in the flat, then formed over the curvature of the galley. The outer ribs would have to be set to clear the seal radii.

[capnTelescope]

Or is it 5.0? New version today based on 3.0. Made room for a 1" aluminum gutter on top, plus I actually get more opening angle!

Side view, with gutter:


Full open. I get almost 90 degrees! I'll need to design in a stop.


Here's the gutter peeking out right next to the side gutter:


Excellent squish:


It needs a little more room in the throat:


The gutter is improvised from 2 pieces of angle. 1x1x1/8" C-channel is what I want to use. Titebond doesn't seem to hold to aluminum.

This feels better than 4.1. We shall see.

Thanks for stopping by!

[ryuandwings]

Brad, excellent build and what a patience!! I would have given up and resorted to the typical method.
I must say person like you that have an ability to dramatically change the course of "how things are normally done".

If I may, I would like to chime in with my suggestions.
1. Would it be possible to extend the hatch over the gutter and possibly add another seal on top side of the gutter to stop unnecessary water from going into gutter? I would hate to see water inside of hatch even though you have the seal. Once the water gets into gutter, only way out is into your galley if something goes wrong.
2. You may want to look into something like "F" shaped channel instead of making gutter from 2 angles. I still don't know how to turn the corner, but F shaped trim should give you a channel for water with a flange for mount.

I enjoy your progress very much and keep up the good work.

[KCStudly]

Each step is a refinement. This latest version looks pretty good.

Is the plan to leave the gutters exposed even when the hatch is closed, or will they be partially/mostly covered?

The design is not simple, nor particularly practical to build, and possibly a dismal failure waiting to happen, but then you already know that. I appreciate your soap box words as they surely indicate that you are accepting my comments in the spirit that they are intended, as a second set of eyes and a different perspective with the intent to help solve an interesting challenge... and you obviously have a well developed sense of humor!

Something to keep in mind that has tripped up plenty of people, water doesn't just run down hill like one might tend to expect (like Kahn in the Star Trek movie, that's "two dimensional thinking"). It can have momentum from falling or rolling down in a stream, and can run up hill when redirected, or be wind driven directly and/or by vortices. Might be worth a mock-up wet test to be sure that water running off of the roof doesn't shoot past the lower rear lip of the gutter. But then again if it is raining that hard you will likely close the hatch.

Any thoughts on the chosen size of the gutter (arbitrary based on available alum.?) and have you given any thought to pitching it toward either side?

Maybe I'm over thinking things, as usual. It is hard to turn the engineer in my brain to the "off" position.

[capnTelescope]

If I may, I would like to chime in with my suggestions.

You certainly may.

1. Would it be possible to extend the hatch over the gutter and possibly add another seal on top side of the gutter to stop unnecessary water from going into gutter? I would hate to see water inside of hatch even though you have the seal. Once the water gets into gutter, only way out is into your galley if something goes wrong.

It's kind of a Zen thing. How do you keep water out of the galley? Give it somewhere easier to go to. So the gutter across the top will feed into the gutters on the sides, which will go to ground. I want to see if that approach works before I try more drastic measures. Remember, what I've done up to now is just mockup so I have a better idea where I want to go later. (Am I "mocking" my own design?)

2. You may want to look into something like "F" shaped channel instead of making gutter from 2 angles. I still don't know how to turn the corner, but F shaped trim should give you a channel for water with a flange for mount.

That would be convenient. Do you have a source? I've only started looking for stock aluminum shapes. I'm looking for a 1" high, 1" wide (maybe 1=1/2"?)gutter. I used 2 pieces of angle because that's what HD had today.

I enjoy your progress very much and keep up the good work.

Thank you, Ryu. I very much appreciate your comments.

[capnTelescope]

Each step is a refinement. This latest version looks pretty good.

Thanks, KC. I feel like this one's pretty close. Of course, I said that yesterday about 4.1.

Is the plan to leave the gutters exposed even when the hatch is closed, or will they be partially/mostly covered?

They will be partially covered, but open to the elements. It's the Zen thing I 'splained to Ryu.

I appreciate your soap box words ...

You are exactly right. I appreciate all comments, and have taken no offense to yours or anyone else's comments. In my engineer years, I found that others have their own insights which may lead to a better insight of my own. A' la Brainstorming. Au contraire, (keeping the French lingo theme) keeping up this build journal wouldn't be worth the effort if nobody ever said anything.

Something to keep in mind ... But then again if it is raining that hard you will likely close the hatch.

When you're "out there," you need to keep an eye on the sky. Plus I don't want some varmint (4-legged or otherwise) stealing my Cheerios when I ain't looking.

Any thoughts on the chosen size of the gutter (arbitrary based on available alum.?) and have you given any thought to pitching it toward either side?

1" deep seems to work out pretty good. 1" to 1-1/2 " wide. Know any source for F-shaped stock like Ryu said? I want a standard size/shape. Can't afford a mill run. I have thought about how would I make it high in the middle, but maybe just to one side...

Maybe I'm over thinking things, as usual.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it!

[capnTelescope]

Almost forgot -- I wanted to post a DXF of this latest iteration, so it's attached. Enjoy!

TD2 v3 galley hatch v3-1.dxf

(210.29 KiB) Downloaded 566 times

[ryuandwings]

]2. You may want to look into something like "F" shaped channel instead of making gutter from 2 angles. I still don't know how to turn the corner, but F shaped trim should give you a channel for water with a flange for mount.

That would be convenient. Do you have a source? I've only started looking for stock aluminum shapes. I'm looking for a 1" high, 1" wide (maybe 1=1/2"?)gutter. I used 2 pieces of angle because that's what HD had today.

This may be a little smaller than what you have now, but I was thinking something like this.
http://www.brunnerent.com/Tools/Portfolio/frontend/item.asp?type=9&size=0&lngDisplay=0&jPageNumber=10&strMetaTag=

[tony.latham]

Cap:

I've been quietly stalking your progress, especially during your recent R&D on your hatch. At one time, I almost –tongue in cheek– sent you a picture of a hurricane hinge. (You can still PM me for details on where to get 'em.)

Sometimes it's the journey, not the arrival that pricks our lives, and that's where you're clearly at with this project. But you know that. Keep it up. Your posts are much more interesting than the show, "How It's Built."

Tony

[capnTelescope]

For those of you who haven't been to Post # 1 of this thread in a while, I just put up a Table of Contents there so I can find milestones of the build. It's all about me, but you can use it too. You're welcome.

I was thinking something like this.
http://www.brunnerent.com/Tools/Portfol ... trMetaTag=

Thanks, Ryu. That would be it. I really want a 1" gutter width, but you're getting warmer. It's one of those "Get a quote" setups, so I'll wait until it's serious before I push that button.

Sometimes it's the journey, not the arrival that pricks our lives, and that's where you're clearly at with this project.

Exactly.

Your posts are much more interesting than the show, "How It's Built."

Thanks, Tony. I love that show! It's what I'll watch when there isn't anything else worth watching, which is often.

[RandyG]

Too bad you don't have a metal brake, you could make the gutter pretty easily. Or if you knew anyone that does sheet metal work... they could bend it for you. Keep up the tinkering, love it!

[GuyllFyre]

Something to keep in mind that has tripped up plenty of people, water doesn't just run down hill like one might tend to expect (like Kahn in the Star Trek movie, that's "two dimensional thinking"). It can have momentum from falling or rolling down in a stream, and can run up hill when redirected, or be wind driven directly and/or by vortices. Might be worth a mock-up wet test to be sure that water running off of the roof doesn't shoot past the lower rear lip of the gutter. But then again if it is raining that hard you will likely close the hatch.

I am completely enjoying this thread.
Thank you.

Now for some comments regarding the above quote and water.

It's not just the times it's sitting still you have to worry about, it's also when it's being towed.
You're right about water moving. I used to call the hatch on my 1991 VW GTi (Golf) a crap magnet. When it would rain or have wetness, the car had a particular shape where the airstream would pick up the roadspray and it would swirl back around the car and deposit everything from the bumper to the roof on the hatch. Aerodynamics play a big part on where water gets forced into areas you didn't think it would go.

So not only does the hatch need to resist water falling from the top and using gravity but also the force of air pushing moisture up from the bottom of the hatch and maybe the sides as well.

[capnTelescope]

Too bad you don't have a metal brake...

Yeah. and Harbor Fright has 'em for cheap. I sure wish I took metal shop in school. I don't remember them even offering it. How hard can that be to teach yourself?

Keep up the tinkering, love it!

Meeee too! This whole project is pretty much one big tinker. When you're a pioneer, you catch the occasional arrow.

Stay tuned!

[pchast]

I like where you are going with this idea.

I'd keep looking for stock forms and not fab the gutter. Something
that long is difficult to make and place undamaged in sheet goods,
especially with the tension of the gasket.

How will you join the side gutters to the top section?

[capnTelescope]

Well, I was about to hit "submit" and firefox crashed and my carefully and cleverly worded reply was lost, never to be found.

I am completely enjoying this thread.
Thank you.

You're most welcome. Thank you. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Me too.

(rant)
KC and GuyllFyre have pointed out there are innumerable indeterminable things that may go wrong. This is understandable, because there are so many unknown unknowns that they can't all be known to be unknown. I share your worries and misgivings. This might not work at all. But I don't know what might happen, or how, or where, or what might be done about it. I don't even know what I don't know. There are whole books written about what I don't know. Therefore I choose to forge ahead in blissful ignorance of what I don't know in hopes that what I don't know won't matter, or I will come to know what I didn't know before. Even VW can make Crap Magnets, so why can't I?
(/rant)